X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from securemail.ever-tek.com ([64.129.170.194] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3873256 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Oct 2009 13:01:39 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.129.170.194; envelope-from=cbarber@bellairepolice.com Return-Path: cbarber@bellairepolice.com Received: from fcd-mail05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([172.16.5.24]) by FCD-MAIL03.FCDATA.PRIVATE with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 3 Oct 2009 12:01:07 -0500 Received: from fcd-mail05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([4.4.5.9]) byfcd-mail05.FCDATA.PRIVATE ([4.4.5.9]) with mapi; Sat, 3 Oct 2009 12:01:01-0500 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 12:01:00 -0500 From: Chris Barber Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure. To: Rotary motors in aircraft Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure. Thread-Index: AcpEOwfP8kuwFoz8SYe951SPzJCvUQACw4/e References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Oct 2009 17:01:07.0588 (UTC) FILETIME=[19948440:01CA444B] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D0F749463E0EF646B3946A4248B3C86A6ACF0A92fcdmail05FCDATA_" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_000_D0F749463E0EF646B3946A4248B3C86A6ACF0A92fcdmail05FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The hose were made by me by parts from Summet and/or my local race shop. = Most of the fittings are Earls AN fittings and the hose is, IIRC, Aeroqu= ip. It is NOT stainless braided but high pressure rated. There was no i= nterfearance with the hose rubbing anything. I am not at the hangar and = I only glanced at the damage before I had to leave yesterday but I think = it is a very short hose that burst. I can't recall where it is routed fr= om. I will check all that out later if/when I get to the hangar today. NOW, just to verify the basics. If am an looking at the oil lubrication = diagram properly and follow the little arrows in the picture, the oil EXI= TS the engine from the front of the engine (where the pully's are) and EN= TERS back into the engine via the left rear nearer the PSRU/Prop. As Dav= id Staten mentioned, the remote oil mount has little arrows cast to the m= ount showing an in and an out....actually it is two "ins" and two "outs".= I have one "out" sealed with a fitting and the other "in" has an adapto= r that has my oil temp sensor installed. The hose goes IN to the filter = from the hose that comes OUT of the engine and comes OUT of the filter to= be routed back IN to the engine. This install has a longer oil routing since it goes to a second oil coole= r mounted in the front of the plane for cabin heating (per Velocity plans= ). My earlier concern was that oil pressure would be too low due to the = 15 feet or so run to the front of the plane and then back. Also, Chrissi= has expressed concern over the aviation oil cooler provided by Velocity = may not be up to the task. I think part of this concern has been due to = the failurs of air conidtioning units being used as coolers and burtsing = in use. It seems as if the front cooler was up to the task, but, alas th= e line was not. Of course my focus now is to the WHY. I hope it is just a bad hose. Donno yet. I really did not have time to = look it over before I had to leave. I had time to put a towel down with= a oil drain pan on the towel to catch the remants of the dripping oil. = This "opportunity" will allow me to check the rest of the system. I had = already concluded it needed to be reviewed due to the attempts at the fil= ter/filter mount were not the problem. Again, the indicated oil pressure= is what I expected, so now to try and determine why indicated pressure w= as ok, but it was obvioulsy much higher as shown by the leaking filter an= d now burst hose.....I am guessin', as Lynn mentioned, this hose was bad,= thus, while holding too high of pressure for a while and not to rated pr= essure, it failure point was finally reached. When I installed the system, I was getting good flow. Also, the entire s= ystem does heat up, so oil is still flowing. I will advise what I find. Thanks guys. All the best, Chris Barber Houston ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf O= f Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:05 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure. Lynn Hanover wrote: > > > The fittings from different manufacturers should not be interchanged. > The fittings from different styles from the same manufacturer should > not be interchanged. Be aware that AN (Airforce-Navy Standard) (the > airplane stuff) and JIC (Joint Industry Standard) look identical. > The SAE hose looks exactly the same as well but will more likely have > 45 drgree flair angles rather than 37 degree flair angles. > ........ All the fittings on the engine are AN fittings, and purchased from Summit Racing by me, unless Chris has changed something since my exit from the project. The oil conduit hoses weren't the 3000 lb test but it wasn't cheap hose by any means. It was build-a-hose kinda stuff from Summit. Unless he has changed things, the front oil pressure relief was stock and the rear oil pressure valve was stock. The cooler was before the filter. The cooler was a mazda cooler. The aftermarket oil filter mount has arrows on it indicating in/out for flow. david.staten@gmail.com I just checked the Summit Catalogue, and the page says the fittings are "= AN". That suggests, at the least, that the pieces would be legal on a rea= l airplane if you had the paper trail to an approved manufacturer. I saw = no mention of pressure rating, but even the lowest rating would be well a= bove anything a homebuilt plane would need. I have hundreds of buys from = Summit and never a bad part. If the hose was assembled at home and not tested by a hose shop, then my = idea about the hose is still valid. There are some tricks to assembling h= ose ends that do not show up in the directions. The process is easy if yo= u have done it a few hundred times. The Teflon liner is very soft and can be damaged easily during assembly. = A single piece of braid wire folded back can pierce the liner on assembly= or months later. You must inspect the whole piece of hose before assembly for a single bro= ken braid wire. If you can see both ends of the failure, fine. If only on= e end, the other end is free on the inside of the braid next to the hose = liner. Cut the hose through the broken braid and use the remaining pieces= if you can, for shorter runs. If all of the other statments are accurate, it has to be the hose. Lynn E. Hanover Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e= -mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legal= ly privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person respon= sible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notifie= d that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the informa= tion contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED= =2E If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately n= otify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmissi= on and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. --_000_D0F749463E0EF646B3946A4248B3C86A6ACF0A92fcdmail05FCDATA_ Content-Type: text/html;charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The h= ose were made by me by parts from Summet and/or my local race shop. = Most of the fittings are Earls AN fittings and the hose is, IIRC, Aeroqu= ip.  It is NOT stainless braided but high pressure rated.  There was no interfearance with the hose rubbing anything.&= nbsp; I am not at the hangar and I only glanced at the damage before I ha= d to leave yesterday but I think it is a very short hose that burst. = ; I can't recall where it is routed from.  I will check all that out later if/when I get to the hangar today.
 
NOW, just to verify the= basics.  If am an looking at the oil lubrication diagram properly a= nd follow the little arrows in the picture, the oil EXITS the engine from= the front of the engine (where the pully's are) and ENTERS back into the engine via the left rear nearer the PSRU/Prop.&= nbsp; As David Staten mentioned, the remote oil mount has little arrows c= ast to the mount showing an in and an out....actually it is two "ins= " and two "outs".  I have one "out" sealed = with a fitting and the other "in" has an adaptor that has= my oil temp sensor installed.  The hose goes IN to the filter from = the hose that comes OUT of the engine and comes OUT of the filter to be r= outed back IN to the engine. 
 
This install has a long= er oil routing since it goes to a second oil cooler mounted in the front = of the plane for cabin heating (per Velocity plans).  My earlier con= cern was that oil pressure would be too low due to the 15 feet or so run to the front of the plane and then back.  Als= o, Chrissi has expressed concern over the aviation oil cooler provided by= Velocity may not be up to the task.  I think part of this concern h= as been due to the failurs of air conidtioning units being used as coolers and burtsing in use.  It seems as if the fron= t cooler was up to the task, but, alas the line was not. 
 
Of course my focus now = is to the WHY.
 
I hope it is just a bad= hose.  Donno yet.  I really did not have time to look it over = before I had to leave.   I had time to put a towel down with a oil d= rain pan on the towel to catch the remants of the dripping oil.  This "opportunity" will allow me to check the rest = of the system.  I had already concluded it needed to be reviewed due= to the attempts at the filter/filter mount were not the problem.  A= gain, the indicated oil pressure is what I expected, so now to try and determine why indicated pressure was ok, but it was obvioulsy mu= ch higher as shown by the leaking filter and now burst hose.....I am gues= sin', as Lynn mentioned, this hose was bad, thus, while holding too high = of pressure for a while and not to rated pressure, it failure point was finally reached. 
 
When I installed the sy= stem, I was getting good flow.  Also, the entire system does heat up= , so oil is still flowing. 
 
I will advise what I fi= nd.
 
Thanks guys.
 
All the best,
 
Chris Barber
Houston
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [= flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover [lehanover@gmail.c= om]
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 10:05 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Too much oil pressure.

Lynn Hanover wrote:
>
> 
> The fittings from different manufacturers should not be interchanged= =2E
> The fittings from different styles from the same manufacturer should=
> not be interchanged. Be aware that AN (Airforce-Navy Standard) (the =
> airplane stuff) and JIC (Joint Industry Standard) look identical. > The SAE hose looks exactly the same as well but will more likely hav= e
> 45 drgree flair angles rather than 37 degree flair angles.
> ........
All the fittings on the engine are AN fittings, and purchased from
Summit Racing by me, unless Chris has changed something since my exit from the project.

The oil conduit hoses weren't the 3000 lb test but it wasn't cheap hose <= br> by any means. It was build-a-hose kinda stuff from Summit.

Unless he has changed things, the front oil pressure relief was stock and the rear oil pressure valve was stock.
The cooler was before the filter. The cooler was a mazda cooler.

The aftermarket oil filter mount has arrows on it indicating in/out for <= br> flow.
 
I just checked the Summit Catalogue, and the page says the fittings = are "AN". That suggests, at the least, that the pieces would be= legal on a real airplane if you had the paper trail to an approved manuf= acturer. I saw no mention of pressure rating, but even the lowest rating would be well above anything a homebuilt plane wo= uld need. I have hundreds of buys from Summit and never a bad part.
 
If the hose was assembled at home and not tested by a hose shop= , then my idea about the hose is still valid. There are some tricks to as= sembling hose ends that do not show up in the directions. The process is = easy if you have done it a few hundred times. 
 
The Teflon liner is very soft and can be damaged easily during assem= bly. A single piece of braid wire folded back can pierce the liner on ass= embly or months later.
 
You must inspect the whole piece of hose before assembly for a singl= e broken braid wire. If you can see both ends of the failure, fine. If on= ly one end, the other end is free on the inside of the braid next to the = hose liner. Cut the hose through the broken braid and use the remaining pieces if you can, for shorter runs.
 
If all of the other statments are accurate, it has to be the hose. <= /div>
 
Lynn E. Hanover
 
 

Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previo= us e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is l= egally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person re= sponsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby not= ified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the inf= ormation contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIB= ITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately= notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmis= sion and its attachments without reading them. Thank you.

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