X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3873055 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 03 Oct 2009 04:58:11 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206E717380F for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2009 16:57:34 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id EE2DDBEC010 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 2009 16:57:33 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 18:57:38 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0054_01CA445B.605DE780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 091002-0, 10/02/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01CA445B.605DE780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bobby, I knew he had a hand in it somewhere, all those things Ed mentioned are = true as well as the efficiency of the diffuser duct and if using a wedge = diffuser, the angle of the rad to the incoming air. I think it must be = more of an art than science. Please let us know how it pans out. George ( down under) Yes. Ed has been a great help. The formula accurately predicted my = current BTU rejection as compared to the Renesis dyno data merged with = the Eaton M64 SC data. Hope it holds true for the new duct. However when = you change things you never know. I had to enlarge the defuser duct also = so that may have change other things.=20 Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, Is that one of Ed's formulas? George ( down under) isn't the inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad face = area Based on the data I've collected 26% should give me the correct heat = rejection for climb out at 100 mph. Just have to see if it actually = works. =20 Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity My mistake Bobby, I'm working too quickly and not concentrating = enough. 775 to 800 cu" should be enough rad volume - however isn't the = inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad face area. I suppose your looking for min drag? George (down under)=20 George, Have not changed the heat exchangers. Just the plumbing and = shortened the hose loop by about 18 inches. The increase from 21 to 26% = is the opening size to core face ratio. I have about 272 sq in of core = face and the opens are now 72 sq in. If this test doesn't work I will be = adding a small oil to air exchanger in parallel with the oil \ water = exchanger with dedicated inlet and reducing my Rad inlets back to 21% / = 58 sq in. Actual core size is about 775 not 800 cu in as I stated = earlier. Glad I have the molds for all this stuff. =20 Bobby (still wondering about Tracy's cooling solution) =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, I've seen between 3 to 3.5 cu" per HP, I guess that depends of how = well the cooling is set-up, 800 cu" of Radiator should do fine for = 250hp. If your previous exchanger was 650 cu" for 250 hp it was = undersized. I guessdamated that size form the info you previously = provided. George (down under) George, I have 800 cu in of water to air exchangers. No oil to air = exchanger. At 6800 rpm \ 38" MP I'm producing close to 250 hp. But 15 hp = is used to drive the SC. So about 3.2 cu in per HP. The new openings are = about 72 sq in. The goal is to lower the water temps from 200F to 185F = with an OAT of 100F. Oil is running 20F hotter than water. With the 21% = ratio I was only able to maintain 185 HP and keep the oil temps below = 220F \ OAT 95F. It all an experiment.=20 Bobby ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, What is your expected HP. How does 26% of core face equate to 3 cu" for every HP i.e. 200 hp =3D 600 cu" George (down under) With any luck I will be back in the air this weekend. I made = several changes including opening my inlets from 21% to 26% of my core = face. Of course it's no longer 105F so will have to extrapolate the = data. Other changes include relocating the battery back to the stock = location, removing 13lbs of tail ballets, new exhaust manifold and belly = mount muffler, CO Detector, exhaust heat for cabin, O2 system, = autopilot, 230 psi water spray for radiator and manifold injection (yet = to be tested), re-plumb the oil to water exchanger and a fresh pilot = bi-annual today.=20 Bobby ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyone out there ??.....................<:) ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01CA445B.605DE780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bobby,
I knew he had a hand in it somewhere, = all those=20 things Ed mentioned are true as well as the efficiency of the diffuser = duct and=20 if using a wedge diffuser, the angle of the  rad to the incoming = air. I=20 think it must be more of an art than science.
Please let us know how it pans = out.
George ( down under)
Yes. Ed has been a great help. The formula = accurately=20 predicted my current BTU rejection as compared to the Renesis = dyno data=20 merged with the Eaton M64 SC data. Hope it holds true for the new = duct.=20 However when you change things you never know. I had to enlarge the = defuser=20 duct also so that may have change other things.
 
Bobby

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George=20 Lendich
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 2:25 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity

Bobby,
Is that one of Ed's = formulas?
George ( down under)
isn't the=20 inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad  = face=20 area
 
Based on the data I've collected 26% = should give me=20 the correct heat rejection for climb out at 100 mph. Just have to = see if it=20 actually works. 
 
Bobby

From: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George=20 Lendich
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:04 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity

 My mistake Bobby, = I'm working too=20 quickly and not concentrating enough. 775 to 800 cu" should be = enough rad=20 volume - however isn't the inlet face area supposed to be = 30% to=20 35 % of rad  face area.
I suppose your looking for min=20 drag?
George (down = under) 
George,
 
Have not changed the heat exchangers. = Just the=20 plumbing and shortened the hose loop by about 18 inches. The = increase=20 from 21 to 26% is the opening size to core face ratio. I have = about=20 272 sq in of core face and the opens are now 72 sq in. If = this test=20 doesn't work I will be adding a small oil to air exchanger in = parallel=20 with the oil \ water exchanger with dedicated inlet and reducing = my Rad=20 inlets back to 21% / 58 sq in.  Actual core size is = about=20 775 not 800 cu in as I stated earlier.
 
Glad I have the molds for all this = stuff. =20
 
Bobby
(still wondering = about Tracy's=20 cooling solution) =20
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George=20 Lendich
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:53 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity

 Bobby,
I've seen between 3 to 3.5 cu" = per HP, I=20 guess that depends of how well the cooling is set-up, 800 cu" of = Radiator=20 should do fine for 250hp.
If your previous exchanger was = 650 cu" for=20 250 hp it was undersized. I guessdamated that size form the info = you=20 previously provided.
 
George (down under)
George,
 
I have 800 cu in of water to air = exchangers. No oil=20 to air exchanger. At 6800 rpm \ 38" MP I'm producing close to = 250 hp.=20 But 15 hp is used to drive the SC. So about 3.2 cu in per HP. = The new=20 openings are about 72 sq in. The goal is to lower the water = temps from=20 200F to 185F with an OAT of 100F. Oil is running 20F hotter than = water.=20 With the 21% ratio I was only able to maintain 185 HP and keep = the oil=20 temps below 220F \ OAT 95F. It all an experiment. =
 
Bobby

From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George=20 Lendich
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:31=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Activity

 Bobby,
What is your expected = HP.
How does 26% of core face = equate to 3 cu"=20 for every HP
 i.e. 200 hp =3D 600 = cu"
George (down = under)
With any luck I will be = back in the=20 air this weekend. I made several changes including opening my = inlets=20 from 21% to 26% of my core face. Of course it's no longer 105F = so will=20 have to extrapolate the data. Other changes include relocating = the=20 battery back to the stock location, removing 13lbs of tail = ballets,=20 new exhaust manifold and belly mount muffler, CO Detector, = exhaust=20 heat for cabin, O2 system, autopilot, 230 psi water spray for = radiator=20 and manifold injection (yet to be tested), re-plumb the oil to = water=20 exchanger and a fresh pilot bi-annual=20 today. 
 
Bobby


Anyone out there ??.....................<:)
 
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