X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3872629 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:29:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20091002222914633.RNBK6584@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> for ; Fri, 2 Oct 2009 22:29:14 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:29:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01CA438E.4337AE20" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 thread-index: AcpDnoKwCacHGJwRTc+dqUcjTls6fgAELQfQ X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20091002222914633.RNBK6584@cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01CA438E.4337AE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey George Ed doesn't have any formulas, he just gets them from other sources {:>). However, K&W indicate that anywhere from 25% to 40% of core face area for an opening may be valid depending on your core fin density, thickness, air velocity, etc, etc. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, Is that one of Ed's formulas? George ( down under) isn't the inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad face area Based on the data I've collected 26% should give me the correct heat rejection for climb out at 100 mph. Just have to see if it actually works. Bobby _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity My mistake Bobby, I'm working too quickly and not concentrating enough. 775 to 800 cu" should be enough rad volume - however isn't the inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad face area. I suppose your looking for min drag? George (down under) George, Have not changed the heat exchangers. Just the plumbing and shortened the hose loop by about 18 inches. The increase from 21 to 26% is the opening size to core face ratio. I have about 272 sq in of core face and the opens are now 72 sq in. If this test doesn't work I will be adding a small oil to air exchanger in parallel with the oil \ water exchanger with dedicated inlet and reducing my Rad inlets back to 21% / 58 sq in. Actual core size is about 775 not 800 cu in as I stated earlier. Glad I have the molds for all this stuff. Bobby (still wondering about Tracy's cooling solution) _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 2:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, I've seen between 3 to 3.5 cu" per HP, I guess that depends of how well the cooling is set-up, 800 cu" of Radiator should do fine for 250hp. If your previous exchanger was 650 cu" for 250 hp it was undersized. I guessdamated that size form the info you previously provided. George (down under) George, I have 800 cu in of water to air exchangers. No oil to air exchanger. At 6800 rpm \ 38" MP I'm producing close to 250 hp. But 15 hp is used to drive the SC. So about 3.2 cu in per HP. The new openings are about 72 sq in. The goal is to lower the water temps from 200F to 185F with an OAT of 100F. Oil is running 20F hotter than water. With the 21% ratio I was only able to maintain 185 HP and keep the oil temps below 220F \ OAT 95F. It all an experiment. Bobby _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity Bobby, What is your expected HP. How does 26% of core face equate to 3 cu" for every HP i.e. 200 hp = 600 cu" George (down under) With any luck I will be back in the air this weekend. I made several changes including opening my inlets from 21% to 26% of my core face. Of course it's no longer 105F so will have to extrapolate the data. Other changes include relocating the battery back to the stock location, removing 13lbs of tail ballets, new exhaust manifold and belly mount muffler, CO Detector, exhaust heat for cabin, O2 system, autopilot, 230 psi water spray for radiator and manifold injection (yet to be tested), re-plumb the oil to water exchanger and a fresh pilot bi-annual today. Bobby _____ Anyone out there ??.....................<:) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01CA438E.4337AE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hey = George

 

Ed doesn’t have any formulas, = he just gets them from other sources {:>).

 

However, K&W indicate that = anywhere from 25% to 40% of core face area for an opening may be valid depending = on your core fin density, thickness, air velocity, etc, etc.  =

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Friday, October 02, = 2009 4:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Activity

 

Bobby,

Is that one of Ed's = formulas?

George ( down under)

isn't the inlet face area = supposed to be 30% to 35 % of rad  face area

 

Based on the data I've collected 26% should give me = the correct heat rejection for climb out at 100 mph. Just have to see if it actually works. 

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Thursday, October = 01, 2009 5:04 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Activity

 My mistake Bobby, I'm working too quickly = and not concentrating enough. 775 to 800 cu" should be enough rad = volume - however isn't the inlet face area supposed to be 30% to 35 = % of rad  face area.

I suppose your looking for min = drag?

George (down = under) 

George,

=

 

Have not changed the heat = exchangers. Just the plumbing and shortened the hose loop by about 18 inches. The = increase from 21 to 26% is the opening size to core face ratio. I have about = 272 sq in of core face and the opens are now 72 sq in. If this test doesn't = work I will be adding a small oil to air exchanger in parallel with the oil \ = water exchanger with dedicated inlet and reducing my Rad inlets back to = 21% / 58 sq in.  Actual core size is about 775 not 800 cu in as I = stated earlier.

 

Glad I have the molds for all this stuff. 

 

Bobby

(still wondering about = Tracy's = cooling solution) 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George = Lendich
Sent: Thursday, October = 01, 2009 2:53 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Activity

 Bobby,

I've seen between 3 to 3.5 cu" per HP, I = guess that depends of how well the cooling is set-up, 800 cu" of Radiator = should do fine for 250hp.

If your previous exchanger was 650 cu" for 250 = hp it was undersized. I guessdamated that size form the info you previously = provided.

 

George (down under)

George,

=

 

I have 800 cu in of water to air exchangers. No oil to air exchanger. At 6800 rpm \ 38" MP I'm = producing close to 250 hp. But 15 hp is used to drive the SC. So about 3.2 cu in = per HP. The new openings are about 72 sq in. The goal is to lower the water = temps from 200F to 185F with an OAT of 100F. Oil is running 20F hotter than water. = With the 21% ratio I was only able to maintain 185 HP and keep the oil temps = below 220F \ OAT 95F. It all an experiment.

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George = Lendich
Sent: Wednesday, = September 30, 2009 7:31 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Activity

 Bobby,

What is your expected = HP.

How does 26% of core face equate to 3 cu" for = every HP

 i.e. 200 hp =3D 600 = cu"

George (down under)

With any luck I will be back in the = air this weekend. I made several changes including opening my inlets from = 21% to 26% of my core face. Of course it's no longer 105F so will have to = extrapolate the data. Other changes include relocating the battery back to the stock location, removing 13lbs of tail ballets, new exhaust manifold and belly = mount muffler, CO Detector, exhaust heat for cabin, O2 system, autopilot, 230 = psi water spray for radiator and manifold injection (yet to be tested), = re-plumb the oil to water exchanger and a fresh pilot bi-annual = today. 

 

Bobby

 

 

Anyone out there = ??.....................<:)

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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