X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-ew0-f213.google.com ([209.85.219.213] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860512 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:27:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.219.213; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by ewy9 with SMTP id 9so2413918ewy.1 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:27:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=wWbFfuozoLsyj5w7Z6nCWqZKU6t4q1FEm2a3xDCbcv4=; b=sfxKTLKuB9NCVOT8OeHz5PzBOssu5z7oR1xQhNhYTkeq0Vtv+1coZOPqjOZRqBsU/B DSQ4XCE87aFfgB1fL7DIjx0IQIsEn3DZnMZQLsW4yFQs0wZzid6pvlUWzeWXB5LfzMLy H6YdCJ1SZGPxPLwM5JBwWRQIJh9rEaiONbOvs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=Av27M0V7AcNwyXdngSzOANL1xz90ReUAsNlu+qaubEmPCRhKm8Yq8V+Qynsv/fakw+ rawwjwfqclKamv07arbrmLW3mEF0xGJWrQ3ZUJuPhXiW/bQckM8P562gHANmHRLxmnwr 05fvu2lUKYMFEqoyk4JeD9fsDBXcz7zMaxXAs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.211.131.34 with SMTP id i34mr2247177ebn.86.1253496439335; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:27:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:27:19 -0500 Message-ID: <5cf132c0909201827l7c1d4217reab35e8e5255ae38@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ba2ffe6b0b04740c612d --001636c5ba2ffe6b0b04740c612d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Tracy, As a data point, I measured my cowl pressure behind the radiator at 3.5" with cowl flap open, and 5.5" with cowl flap closed. What I gathered from this quick test is that I could benefit from a larger cowl exit. This may or may not correlate to anything you're doing. ;-) Mark S. On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Tracy Crook wrote: > "No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across the > radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the cockpit, > you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. " > > It was not zero but low. about 1.2" H2O. This is at 120 MPH BTW. This > was with cowl flap open. The reference is to the aircraft static system so > it should be accurate. Have not measured the front side of heat exchangers > yet but I assumed diffusers were working well based on cowl off flight > test. Will have to verify this of course. > > Just finished the VG flight test. No measurable difference. > > Also flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a bit). > Slightly better cooling but not the answer. > > I'm trying to restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the > louvers. I can't see how they would help much, especially on the bottom of > cowl. Maybe on the top? Somebody STOP me! > > Tracy > > On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill Bradburry > wrote: > >> No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across the >> radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the cockpit, >> you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. It >> the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, there will be little or no >> velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will not help. Al? said he had >> his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help speed the air back up as it goes out. >> >> >> >> Bill B >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On >> Behalf Of *Tracy Crook >> *Sent:* Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments >> >> "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose >> connections...no doubt on this. " >> >> Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years >> (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost >> always caused by false assumptions. >> >> It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the >> mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered your test >> proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were betting, >> I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about the wiring might >> need examination as well. >> >> This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was showing >> up on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line running very >> close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that the oil >> line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was actually coming from >> something at the opposite end of the engine. What exactly was it Ed? It >> defied all logic in that it was not even close to where it showed up and the >> oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under the cowl. >> >> Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all >> my own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in >> the open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below >> where it was. The temperatures were down a little but not near what I >> wanted. Only a little better than the big giant opening I tried. At this >> point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad >> place to put a cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my working assumption is >> that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow through >> radiator and oil cooler. I had installed a pressure probe under the cowl >> but forgot to look at the reading. Figuring I might as well know how big a >> problem I had, I made another flight to check the under cowl pressure. >> Duhh, almost nothing! Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, >> pinched, etc, and everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few >> other spots to be sure about this. There is something odd going on with >> airflow under the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. >> >> One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by >> installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. This is so >> non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to try >> I might have to do it while scratching my head. >> >> Tracy >> . >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber < >> cbarber@bellairepolice.com> wrote: >> >> Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice >> here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested here and in >> the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it >> started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down and started back up >> with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. >> Kewl. >> >> >> >> The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and >> installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking at >> the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing the >> filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see all >> inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). But, NO >> JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping from the >> filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. I know the >> rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I would not think it >> would be so much that it is overwhelming this standard mount and seal. This >> is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in the >> USA. Looks like many others I have seen. Y'all have any ideas. >> >> >> >> Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a >> welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless turbo >> exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my >> manifold.. As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had >> wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil return >> being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to the >> rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will have to >> make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper clearance >> EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail. So, I >> ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades >> suggestion. My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the >> wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail >> completly. We looked at the options and he took the manifold with him >> saying he would cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the >> new part on in a few days. Kewl. >> >> >> >> The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I even >> transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked >> fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the lasted >> progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh? It will >> not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear. I decided to >> start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test. Damn, no >> chattering of the injectors (even though I was able to hear an individual >> click when I primed it). Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark. All >> the other electrics are working fine. >> >> >> >> I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector clattering >> away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on Rotor one did not >> seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector that I had and tried >> again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then stopped. >> Looks like I have some more wire issues. Damn, I though I had really gotten >> past most of those. >> >> >> >> I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The other >> electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are not. >> Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there own power >> source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, it is the same >> on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and >> decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually >> gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata >> gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's >> ain't all that bad >> >> >> >> I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. Upon my >> return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after >> work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. >> >> >> >> As always my friends, Thanks. >> >> >> >> All the best, >> >> >> >> Chris Barber >> >> Houston >> >> >> Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous >> e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally >> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible >> for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that >> any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information >> contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you >> have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by >> telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its >> attachments without reading them. Thank you. >> >> >> > > --001636c5ba2ffe6b0b04740c612d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tracy,
=A0
As a data point, I measured my cowl pressure behind the radiator at 3.= 5" with cowl flap open, and 5.5" with cowl flap closed.=A0 What I= gathered from this quick test is that I=A0could benefit from=A0a larger co= wl=A0exit.=A0 This may or may not correlate to anything you're doing.= =A0 ;-)
=A0
Mark S.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotary= aviation.com> wrote:
"No air pressu= re under the cowl??=A0 What is the pressure drop across the radiator?=A0 Wh= at is the zero pressure referenced to?=A0 If it is the cockpit, you may hav= e pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. = "

It was not zero but low.=A0 about 1.2" H2O.=A0 This is at 12= 0 MPH BTW.=A0 =A0=A0 This was with cowl flap open.=A0 The reference is to t= he aircraft static system so it should be accurate.=A0 Have not measured th= e front side of heat exchangers yet but I assumed diffusers were working we= ll based on cowl off flight test.=A0 Will have to verify this of course.
Just finished the VG flight test.=A0 No measurable difference.

A= lso flew with the inlet fairings off (which enlarges the inlets a bit).=A0 = Slightly better cooling but not the answer.=A0

I'm trying to re= strain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the louvers.=A0 I can= 9;t see how they would help much, especially on the bottom of cowl.=A0 Mayb= e on the top?=A0 Somebody STOP me!

Tracy

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill Bradburry <= bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Tracy = Crook=20


Sent:= Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM=20

To: Rotary motors = in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] R= e: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments

"<= span style=3D"COLOR: rgb(102,51,255)">It IS seeping from the filter seal an= d NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. "

Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over = the years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are= almost always caused by false assumptions.

It is possible to get se= veral bad filters or two bad filter mounts but the mathematical=A0 odds are= staggeringly small.=A0 You haven't offered your test proofs as to why = you know they are bad and leaking but if I were betting, I'd put my mon= ey on something else.=A0 The assumptions about the wiring might need examin= ation as well.

This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had.=A0 The oil was show= ing up on the back side of one of his rads.=A0 There was an oil line runnin= g very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was ma= de that the oil line was leaking.=A0 Long story short, the oil leak was act= ually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine.=A0 What exac= tly was it Ed?=A0 It defied all logic in that it was not even close to wher= e it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under = the cowl.=A0=A0

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away al= l my own assumptions. =A0 I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed i= t in the open position.=A0 The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 "= ; below=A0 where it was.=A0 The temperatures were down a little but not nea= r what I wanted.=A0 Only a little better than the big giant opening I tried= .=A0 At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the airpla= ne was bad place to put a cooling outlet.=A0 Keep in mind that my working a= ssumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good air= flow through radiator and oil cooler.=A0 I had installed a pressure probe u= nder the cowl but forgot to look at the reading.=A0=A0 Figuring I might as = well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to check the under= cowl pressure.=A0 Duhh,=A0 almost nothing!=A0 Checked the probe to make su= re it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and everything looked OK.=A0=A0 I need= to check pressure in a few other spots to be sure about this.=A0 There is = something odd going on with airflow under the cowl but I'm back ti head= scratching mode again.

One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by = installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet.=A0 This is so no= n-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to t= ry I might have to do it while scratching my head.

Tracy
.


cbarber@bellairepolice.com>= wrote:

Made it out to the hangar for m= ost the day and decided to take the advice here and modify my start up rout= ine based on what was suggested here and in the manual.=A0 So, I cranked th= e mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a few blades.=A0 R= an for a while, shut down and started back up with mixture in about the 2:0= 0 oclock position....and it started fine.=A0 Kewl.

The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mo= unt and installed a new filter.=A0 As I have mentioned here I have had it l= eaking at the rubber filter seal.=A0 The old one looked ok, but since repla= cing the filters no less than three times=A0and knowing that the eye cannot= see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filte= r).=A0 But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts.=A0 It IS s= eeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on = this.=A0 I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines = but I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this stan= dard mount and seal.=A0 This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount m= ade out of AL...Made in the USA.=A0 Looks like many others I have seen.=A0 = Y'all have any ideas.=A0

Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out = to be a welder by trade.=A0 He came down as I was working on the new stainl= ess turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify m= y manifold..=A0 As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I = had wold work if mounted upside down.=A0 It puts the turbo lower (the oil r= eturn being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to = the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link.=A0 I will hav= e to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper cle= arance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail.= =A0 So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on Joh= n Slades suggestion.=A0 My welder friend said it would not be too big a job= to turn the wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fu= el rail completly.=A0 We looked at the options and he took the manifold wit= h him saying he would cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to f= it the new part on in a few days. Kewl.

=
Warning: This e-mail transmission, and = any documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confid= ential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended = recipient or the person responsible for delivering it to the intended recip= ient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or= use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmissio= n is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, = please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the o= riginal transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you.