X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3860495 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:14:48 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090921011413.TCNY21106.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:14:13 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.133.78]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id jDEC1c0081hf1Cg04DECzM; Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:14:12 -0400 X-VR-Score: -150.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=5RvM0Nif2WQA:10 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=cEsSX396AAAA:8 a=U1PI7Kfph_TO-dVns4AA:9 a=PSRcjSl85R8dvHSuFpgA:7 a=BJlvMWnzuD1xo-ZjQ0CB3lLxLNkA:4 a=Xs21W9NlLssA:10 a=CzG_uCeGblAA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=a5-OGnwyBokA:10 a=-mmh68nCzk813hld:21 a=kcyKaF5WOS1WqYVU:21 a=PyYIWRuZsWr38dgzyNcA:9 a=-g4RaiJMfd3TJdIZuNMA:7 a=SRsZjtX36nCO-jsnyPYIHD0Jt_8A:4 X-CM-Score: 0.00 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:13:55 -0800 Message-ID: <27D7E01EC5884ABF8506FEDB70141985@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01CA3A1E.1E0144F0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6838 Importance: Normal Thread-Index: Aco6RQvivTHNZ2ddTy+SbnP/mkcraAAGvGUg In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CA3A1E.1E0144F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm trying to restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the louvers. I can't see how they would help much, especially on the bottom = of cowl. Maybe on the top? Somebody STOP me! Perhaps it would be good to measure static pressure above and below the = cowl before you make any big 'chops' anywhere. Put some porous foam over the = end of your manometer tube with tube perpendicular to the flow. Problem = with louvers on top of the cowl is that any oil or coolant leaks may end up = on your windshield. Measuring pressure on the front face of the rad and comparing to pitot pressure may be worthwhile. Your cowl off test may be such a radical departure from cowl-on conditions that it could lead to false = conclusions FWIW, Al Tracy=20 On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Bill Bradburry = wrote: No air pressure under the cowl?? What is the pressure drop across the radiator? What is the zero pressure referenced to? If it is the = cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit causing the difference to be zero. = It the pressure under the cowl is truly zero, there will be little or no velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs will not help. Al? said he = had his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help speed the air back up as it goes = out. =20 Bill B =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling experiments "It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose = connections...no doubt on this. " Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost always caused by false assumptions. It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but = the mathematical odds are staggeringly small. You haven't offered your = test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were = betting, I'd put my money on something else. The assumptions about the wiring = might need examination as well. This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had. The oil was showing = up on the back side of one of his rads. There was an oil line running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was made that the = oil line was leaking. Long story short, the oil leak was actually coming = from something at the opposite end of the engine. What exactly was it Ed? = It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where it showed up and = the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under the cowl. =20 Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all = my own assumptions. I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it in = the open position. The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below = where it was. The temperatures were down a little but not near what I wanted. = Only a little better than the big giant opening I tried. At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of the airplane was bad place to = put a cooling outlet. Keep in mind that my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to allow good airflow through = radiator and oil cooler. I had installed a pressure probe under the cowl but = forgot to look at the reading. Figuring I might as well know how big a = problem I had, I made another flight to check the under cowl pressure. Duhh, = almost nothing! Checked the probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, = etc, and everything looked OK. I need to check pressure in a few other = spots to be sure about this. There is something odd going on with airflow under = the cowl but I'm back ti head scratching mode again. One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet. This is so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to = try I might have to do it while scratching my head. Tracy . On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Chris Barber = wrote: Made it out to the hangar for most the day and decided to take the = advice here and modify my start up routine based on what was suggested here and = in the manual. So, I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a few blades. Ran for a while, shut down and started back = up with mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine. Kewl. =20 The first bad news is that I replaced my romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter. As I have mentioned here I have had it leaking = at the rubber filter seal. The old one looked ok, but since replacing the filters no less than three times and knowing that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter (K&N 2004 filter). But, = NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter mounts. It IS seeping from = the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. I know = the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other engines but I would not think = it would be so much that it is overwhelming this standard mount and seal. = This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount made out of AL...Made in = the USA. Looks like many others I have seen. Y'all have any ideas. =20 =20 Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars down turns out to be a = welder by trade. He came down as I was working on the new stainless turbo = exhaust manifold the other day after offering to help me modify my manifold.. = As was mentioned here before, the old cast iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside down. It puts the turbo lower (the oil return being = about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control link. I will have to make a = very small modification to the lower cowl to give me proper clearance EXCEPT = the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel rail. So, I ordered = a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John Slades = suggestion. My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to turn the wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel rail completly. = We looked at the options and he took the manifold with him saying he would = cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit the new part on in a = few days. Kewl. =20 The second bad news is that I was doing some continued tuning. I even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the factory and it worked = fine. HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine stopped. Huh? It = will not restart. I checke the first fuel filter and it is clear. I decided = to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test. Damn, = no chattering of the injectors (even though I was able to hear an = individual click when I primed it). Put on a test plug and wire and got no spark. = All the other electrics are working fine.=20 =20 I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of the inectors. The secondary on Rotor one did = not seem to fire. Hmmmmm? I put on an extra injector that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then fired for a few seconds and then = stopped. Looks like I have some more wire issues. Damn, I though I had really = gotten past most of those. =20 I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to just shut down. The other electrical componants are all working, but the EC2 componants are not. Strange since I thought each items (injectors and coils) had there own = power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this. Yes, it is the = same on A and B. Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night = and decided to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious enough to hang out in the hangar with me for a few = hours...whata gal)....well, she helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my = 40's ain't all that bad =20 I anxiously wait commentary and possible explanations from y'all. Upon = my return to the hangar (today was MY Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night = after work I will be looking at my, apparntly piss poor, wiring. =20 As always my friends, Thanks. =20 All the best, =20 Chris Barber Houston Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is = legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person = responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If = you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us = by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading them. Thank you. =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01CA3A1E.1E0144F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'm trying to restrain myself from chopping up the cowl to install the louvers.  I can't see how they would help much, especially on the = bottom of cowl.  Maybe on the top?  Somebody STOP = me!

Perhaps it would be good to measure static pressure above and below the cowl = before you make any big ‘chops’ anywhere.  Put some porous foam = over the end of your manometer tube with tube perpendicular to the flow. =  Problem with louvers on top of the cowl is that any oil or coolant leaks may end = up on your windshield.

Measuring pressure on the front face of the rad and comparing to pitot pressure = may be worthwhile.  Your cowl off test may be such a radical departure = from cowl-on conditions that it could lead to false conclusions

FWIW,

Al



Tracy

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 3:09 = PM, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

No air pressure under the cowl??  What = is the pressure drop across the radiator?  What is the zero pressure = referenced to?  If it is the cockpit, you may have pressure in the cockpit = causing the difference to be zero.  It the pressure under the cowl is truly = zero, there will be little or no velocity of the flow out of the cowl so VGs = will not help.   Al? said he had his cowl pressure at 5 inches to help = speed the air back up as it goes out.

 

Bill B

 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy = Crook
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 9:03 AM


To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another mixed day / Cooling = experiments

"It IS seeping from the = filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no doubt on this. = "

Just from observing many rotary installation 'de-bugings' over the years (including my own) I noticed that difficult to solve problems are almost = always caused by false assumptions.

It is possible to get several bad filters or two bad filter mounts but = the mathematical  odds are staggeringly small.  You haven't = offered your test proofs as to why you know they are bad and leaking but if I were = betting, I'd put my money on something else.  The assumptions about the = wiring might need examination as well.

This reminds me of an oil leak the Ed Anderson had.  The oil was = showing up on the back side of one of his rads.  There was an oil line = running very close (< 1" as I recall) to the rad so the assumption was = made that the oil line was leaking.  Long story short, the oil leak was = actually coming from something at the opposite end of the engine.  What = exactly was it Ed?  It defied all logic in that it was not even close to where = it showed up and the oil was traveling against the assumed airflow under = the cowl.  

Speaking of assumed airflow, my cooling experiments are blowing away all = my own assumptions.   I kluged up the cowl flap I mentioned and fixed it = in the open position.  The trailing edge of outlet is about 1 1/2 " below  where it was.  The temperatures were down a little but = not near what I wanted.  Only a little better than the big giant = opening I tried.  At this point I was ready to conclude that the underside of = the airplane was bad place to put a cooling outlet.  Keep in mind that = my working assumption is that the pressure under the cowl is too high to = allow good airflow through radiator and oil cooler.  I had installed a = pressure probe under the cowl but forgot to look at the reading.   = Figuring I might as well know how big a problem I had, I made another flight to = check the under cowl pressure.  Duhh,  almost nothing!  Checked the = probe to make sure it was not blocked, pinched, etc, and everything looked OK.   I need to check pressure in a few other spots to be sure = about this.  There is something odd going on with airflow under the cowl = but I'm back ti head scratching mode again.

One builder on the RV list said he got a big improvement in cooling by installing VGs on the trailing edge of the cooling outlet.  This is = so non-intuitive that I can't imagine why it would work but its so easy to = try I might have to do it while scratching my head.

Tracy
.

On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 1:37 = AM, Chris Barber <cbarber@bellairepolice.com> wrote:

Made it out to = the hangar for most the day and decided to take the advice here and modify = my start up routine based on what was suggested here and in the manual.  So, = I cranked the mixture full rich with no priming and it started up in a few blades.  Ran for a while, shut down and started back up with = mixture in about the 2:00 oclock position....and it started fine.  = Kewl.

 

The first bad news is that I replaced my = romote oil filter mount and installed a new filter.  As I have mentioned here = I have had it leaking at the rubber filter seal.  The old one looked ok, = but since replacing the filters no less than three times and knowing = that the eye cannot see all inperfections, I replaced the mount AND filter = (K&N 2004 filter).  But, NO JOY. It is still leaking where the filter = mounts.  It IS seeping from the filter seal and NOT the two hose connections...no = doubt on this.  I know the rotary's oil pressure is higher than other = engines but I would not think it would be so much that it is overwhelming this = standard mount and seal.  This is just a standard screw on remote oil mount = made out of AL...Made in the = USA.  Looks like many others I have seen.  Y'all have any ideas.  =

 

Second good thing is a guy from a few hangars = down turns out to be a welder by trade.  He came down as I was working = on the new stainless turbo exhaust manifold the other day after offering to = help me modify my manifold..  As was mentioned here before, the old cast = iron manifold I had wold work if mounted upside down.  It puts the turbo = lower (the oil return being about 2 inches higher than the oil inlet return in = the pan) to the rear of the engine and it clears my aileron control = link.  I will have to make a very small modification to the lower cowl to give me = proper clearance EXCEPT the wastegate interfeared with the Mistral intake fuel = rail.  So, I ordered a stainless copy of the cast iron one I had, based on John = Slades suggestion.  My welder friend said it would not be too big a job to = turn the wastgate extension around which should allow it to miss the fuel = rail completly.  We looked at the options and he took the manifold with = him saying he would cut off the old wastgate extention and come back to fit = the new part on in a few days. Kewl.

 

The second bad news is that I was doing some = continued tuning.  I even transferred A to B as B was a bit rough from the = factory and it worked fine.  HOWEVER, later in the day, after feeling = pretty good about the lasted progress (excepting the continued leak) the engine = stopped. Huh?  It will not restart.  I checke the first fuel filter and = it is clear.  I decided to start at the beginning and just run the EC2's diagnostice test.  Damn, no chattering of the injectors (even = though I was able to hear an individual click when I primed it).  Put on a = test plug and wire and got no spark.  All the other electrics are = working fine.

 

I pulled my extra EC2 out and installed it = and I got injector clattering away and spark on three of the inectors.  The secondary on Rotor one did not seem to fire.  Hmmmmm?  I put = on an extra injector that I had and tried again, and it didn't fire...then = fired for a few seconds and then stopped. Looks like I have some more wire = issues.  Damn, I though I had really gotten past most of those.

 

I am really confused about the EC2 seeming to = just shut down.  The other electrical componants are all working, but = the EC2 componants are not.  Strange since I thought each items (injectors = and coils) had there own power source thus should not shut down as a "team" like this.  Yes, it is the same on A and B.  Currently I am very discouraged so I stopped for the night and decided = to crawl into bed with a hot blond and sulk (she was actually gracious enough to = hang out in the hangar with me for a few hours...whata gal)....well, she = helps me from sulking too much.....this dating in my 40's ain't all that bad <g>

 

I anxiously wait commentary and possible = explanations from y'all.  Upon my return to the hangar (today was MY = Sunday) hopefully tomorrow night after work I will be looking at my, apparntly = piss poor, wiring.

 

As always my friends, = Thanks.

 

All the best,

 

Chris Barber

Houston


Warning: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous = e-mails attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient or the person = responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that = any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information = contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have = received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at 713-662-8132 and destroy the original transmission and its attachments = without reading them. Thank you.

 

 

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