X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.51] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3831701 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:37:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.51; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from desktop (adsl-146-126-64.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.126.64]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20090901133637H0100jirvle>; Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:36:37 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.126.64] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: More Charging Circuit Info Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:36:38 -0400 Message-ID: <45F62996210A4DAC81FBC6858F27EAB0@Desktop> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01CA2AE7.B50D2530" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcoqvVxYKeWkX9i/TzSqiAtyNl3E4wAS5I3w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CA2AE7.B50D2530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Amperage doesn=E2=80=99t go up past the alternator = rating=E2=80=A6Voltage spikes so it kills your electro-whizzies but will = not pop a breaker or fuse.=20 =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Jeff Luckey Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 12:33 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: More Charging Circuit Info What about the circuit breaker in the alternator output? In the case of = a full-field regulator failure, you simply open the circuit breaker (if = it doesn=E2=80=99t do it on its own due to the fact that it=E2=80=99s = charging current will go to max) =20 With the circuit breaker open nothing gets fried or boiled. (sounds like = a cooking show;) =20 =20 =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 22:19 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] More Charging Circuit Info =20 Hi Mike, Great cooling numbers on your flight testing...........Good to = hear that after all the trials and tribulations you have been through = that you are gaining confidence in your installation.............. =20 The electrical system info may be somewhat dated as you said so = everyone has to evaluate for themselves if current equipment failure = rates are within their personal tolerance limits..........Most of us are dealing with 1986-1995 era alternators with unknown mileage/hours on = them..........I have had failures on these alternators in automobiles............Some times just = the diode array but once the internal regulator............As luck would have it the failure was an "Open" = that time so did not have a runaway voltage condition..............So as I said each of us has to make their = own decision on this subject............. =20 If nothing else this link provides a very comprehensive explanation = of the charging system and excellent troubleshooting information for even the most electrically challenged of = our little group.............IMHO =20 Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : = --------------=20 =EF=BB=BF=20 Hi Kelly, =20 Thanks for the link. Some interesting info, but... What is lacking is = any sort of statistical info to indicate that this is a real problem. = I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an example system is all that = applicable. And I dont know how old this article is, but gather it is = pretty old given the reference to problems with alternator failures in = cars resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to = say that for virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a runaway = alternator output would result in far more than a few burnt out lights. =20 Since virtually all cars these days use internal solid state = regulators, if these things were prone to failure, and since a runway = over volt failure on any modern car would likely toast some pretty = expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really expensive = repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type of = failure is actually quite rare, but if you can point to relevant = statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ears. =20 Some folks are more risk averse than others and a 1 in a million = possibility is enough to justify making a change. But sooner or later = you have to stop engineering for every possible risk no matter how = remote the failure mode and just get on with it. =20 Meanwhile, the important points I take from this reference are, dont = overload your alternator, ensure that the field is de-energized while = cranking the engine, and keep it cool. =20 Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer to completing my Phase 1. This was = the first flight that after I landed I didnt have anything on my list to = fix before the next flight. 95 degrees OAT at takeoff today and the oil = temp got to 200 at the top of the climb to 5000' but backed off to 192 = after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to gain some = confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should have it = by next weekend but may put off installing it so I can fly some more. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer =20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info =20 Group, I am still on the bandwagon about modifying our flying = alternators for an external regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying group = member Tim Holt & also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I remembered = the link below which explains in language even the electrically challenged among = us will be able to understand...............This info may have been already seen by = some of you but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have = available when wiring our aircraft electrical systems.............IMHO!!.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy Holt)=20 Subject: More Charging Circuit Info=20 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:06:30 +0000=20 Tim, For your informaton here is additional justification in my opinion for = going to an external regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either automaticly = or manualy cut power to the field windings in case of a shorted regulator............Note = that solid state regulators tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current internal = regulators are solid state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said" = !!...............IMHO =20 =20 http://www.nflite.com/ChargingSystem.html -- Kelly Troyer=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01CA2AE7.B50D2530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF

Amperage doesn=E2=80=99t go up past the alternator = rating=E2=80=A6Voltage spikes so it kills your electro-whizzies but will not pop a breaker or = fuse. 

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Luckey
Sent: Tuesday, September = 01, 2009 12:33 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = More Charging Circuit Info

What about the circuit breaker in = the alternator output?  In the case of a full-field regulator failure, = you simply open the circuit breaker (if it doesn=E2=80=99t do it on its own = due to the fact that it=E2=80=99s charging current will go to = max)

 

With the circuit breaker open = nothing gets fried or boiled. (sounds like a cooking = show;)

 

 

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Sunday, August 30, = 2009 22:19
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] More = Charging Circuit Info

 

  Hi Mike,

       Great  cooling numbers = on your flight testing...........Good to hear that after all the = trials and tribulations you have been through that you are gaining confidence in = your installation..............

 

      The electrical system info may be somewhat dated as you said so everyone has to evaluate for themselves if current equipment failure rates are within their personal tolerance limits..........Most of us

are dealing with 1986-1995 era alternators with unknown = mileage/hours on them..........I have had

failures on these alternators  in = automobiles............Some times just the diode array but once the = internal

regulator............As luck would have it the failure was an "Open" that time so did not have a = runaway

voltage condition..............So as I said each of us has to = make their own decision on this = subject.............

 

    If nothing else this link provides a very comprehensive explanation of the charging system and = excellent

troubleshooting information for even the most electrically = challenged of our little group.............IMHO

 


Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" <rv-4mike@cox.net>: --------------

=EF=BB=BF

Hi Kelly,

 

 Thanks for the link. Some interesting info, = but... What is lacking is any sort of statistical info to indicate that this is = a real problem. I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an example system is = all that applicable. And I dont know how old this article is, but gather it = is pretty old given the reference to problems with alternator failures in = cars resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to say = that for virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a runaway alternator output = would result in far more than a few burnt out = lights.

 

 Since virtually all cars these days use = internal solid state regulators, if these things were prone to failure, and since = a runway over volt failure on any modern car would likely toast some pretty = expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really expensive repairs, = warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type of failure is actually = quite rare, but if you can point to relevant statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ears.

 

 Some folks are more risk averse than others and = a 1 in a million possibility is enough to justify making a change. But = sooner or later you have to stop engineering for every possible risk no matter how = remote the failure mode and just get on with it.

 

 Meanwhile, the important points I take from = this reference are, dont overload your alternator, ensure that the field is de-energized while cranking the engine, and keep it = cool.

 

 Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer to = completing my Phase 1. This was the first flight that after I landed I didnt have = anything on my list to fix before the next flight. 95 degrees OAT at takeoff = today and the oil temp got to 200 at the top of the climb to 5000' but backed off = to 192 after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to gain some = confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should have it by next = weekend but may put off installing it so I can fly some = more.

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Kelly Troyer =

Sent: Sunday, = August 30, 2009 1:21 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info

 

  = Group,

       I am still on the bandwagon = about modifying our flying alternators for an = external

regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying = group member Tim Holt &

also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I remembered the link

below which explains in language even the electrically = challenged among us will be

able to understand...............This info may have been already = seen by some of you

but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have available when wiring

our aircraft electrical = systems.............IMHO!!..........

--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold

 

-------------- = Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>
To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy Holt)
Subject: More Charging Circuit Info
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:06:30 +0000

Tim,

 For your informaton here is additional justification in my opinion for going to an external

regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either = automaticly or manualy cut power

to the field windings in case of a shorted = regulator............Note that solid state regulators

tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all = current internal regulators are solid

state.............Link Below..................."Nuff = Said" !!...............IMHO

 

 

--
Kelly Troyer 


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