X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao106.cox.net ([68.230.241.40] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3831244 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:56:33 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.40; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao106.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090901035558.WOKL21192.fed1rmmtao106.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:55:58 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.80.138]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id bFvx1c00D2z3ATG04FvzXm; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:55:59 -0400 X-VR-Score: -100.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=O4KcONCDyRsA:10 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=JXj8tel4AAAA:8 a=kd-F0tRr5-ZrxnyR4uUA:9 a=lb2JOXHaeTzeQEs_ULEA:7 a=LKTKrADilr4UOLo5bisFvSLYRgMA:4 a=DHgN2xDCXMcA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=8xYmXIc5RdFcumOi:21 a=-SuLGU2456r2Sx-a:21 a=Hl1Gy0H5AAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=LDHd1q761spjhlHGDlcA:9 a=PUj5J9QlVzXLTIJRXpcA:7 a=q58Ahz3QrSSvmFNWDlZS7hF4_gAA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <5946E5E8CA7147FBB6944E3EAB3A4334@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: More Charging Circuit Info Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:55:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01CA2A7D.700980B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01CA2A7D.700980B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable George, Up until this last flight, what you describe is what I've been seeing. = But this flight was my first when it was truly hot outside. Based on = what others have experienced with having oil temp limit climb rate (not = a problem for me yet) I'm pretty happy. OAT this hot is pretty rare for = San Diego so I'm glad I got a chance to fly and really exercise the = cooling system. The water side staying right at 180 despite the OAT (I have a 180 = thermostat installed) tells me that I have more than sufficient cooling = and could stand to reduce airflow as Al suggested. Or I could delete my oil cooler and experiment with an oil-water = exchanger. Naw, I think I'll leave that alone and just fly it. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 10:01 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: More Charging Circuit Info Mike, Pretty good, but would like to see 190 for the oil when the water was = 180, but not being critical of your efforts. George (down under)=20 Hi Kelly, Thanks for the link. Some interesting info, but... What is lacking = is any sort of statistical info to indicate that this is a real problem. = I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an example system is all that = applicable. And I dont know how old this article is, but gather it is = pretty old given the reference to problems with alternator failures in = cars resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to = say that for virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a runaway = alternator output would result in far more than a few burnt out lights. Since virtually all cars these days use internal solid state = regulators, if these things were prone to failure, and since a runway = over volt failure on any modern car would likely toast some pretty = expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really expensive = repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type of = failure is actually quite rare, but if you can point to relevant = statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ears. Some folks are more risk averse than others and a 1 in a million = possibility is enough to justify making a change. But sooner or later = you have to stop engineering for every possible risk no matter how = remote the failure mode and just get on with it. Meanwhile, the important points I take from this reference are, = dont overload your alternator, ensure that the field is de-energized = while cranking the engine, and keep it cool. Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer to completing my Phase 1. This = was the first flight that after I landed I didnt have anything on my = list to fix before the next flight. 95 degrees OAT at takeoff today and = the oil temp got to 200 at the top of the climb to 5000' but backed off = to 192 after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to gain some = confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should have it = by next weekend but may put off installing it so I can fly some more. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info Group, I am still on the bandwagon about modifying our flying = alternators for an external regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying = group member Tim Holt & also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I = remembered the link below which explains in language even the electrically challenged = among us will be able to understand...............This info may have been already = seen by some of you but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have = available when wiring our aircraft electrical systems.............IMHO!!.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy Holt)=20 Subject: More Charging Circuit Info=20 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:06:30 +0000=20 Tim, For your informaton here is additional justification in my = opinion for going to an external regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either = automaticly or manualy cut power to the field windings in case of a shorted = regulator............Note that solid state regulators tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current = internal regulators are solid state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said" = !!...............IMHO http://www.nflite.com/ChargingSystem.html -- Kelly Troyer=20 ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01CA2A7D.700980B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
George,
 
 Up until this last flight, what = you describe=20 is what I've been seeing. But this flight was my first when it was truly = hot=20 outside. Based on what others have experienced with having oil temp = limit climb=20 rate (not a problem for me yet) I'm pretty happy. OAT this hot is pretty = rare=20 for San Diego so I'm glad I got a chance to fly and really exercise the = cooling=20 system.
 
 The water side staying right at = 180 despite=20 the OAT (I have a 180 thermostat installed) tells me that I have more = than=20 sufficient cooling and could stand to reduce airflow as Al=20 suggested.
 
 Or I could delete my oil cooler = and=20 experiment with an oil-water exchanger. Naw, I think I'll leave that = alone and=20 just fly it.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 = 10:01=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: FW: = More=20 Charging Circuit Info

Mike,
Pretty good, but would like to see = 190 for the=20 oil when the water was 180, but not being critical of your=20 efforts.
George (down = under) 
Hi Kelly,
 
 Thanks for the link. Some = interesting=20 info, but... What is lacking is any sort of statistical info to = indicate=20 that this is a real problem. I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee = as an=20 example system is all that applicable. And I dont know how old this = article=20 is, but gather it is pretty old given the reference to problems with = alternator failures in cars resulting in nothing more than burning = out=20 lights. I'd venture to say that for virtually any car built since = the mid=20 80s, a runaway alternator output would result in far more than a few = burnt=20 out lights.
 
 Since virtually all cars = these days use=20 internal solid state regulators, if these things were prone to = failure,=20 and since a runway over volt failure on any modern car would likely = toast=20 some pretty expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of = really=20 expensive repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that = this type=20 of failure is actually quite rare, but if you can point to=20 relevant statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all=20 ears.
 
 Some folks are more risk = averse than=20 others and a 1 in a million possibility is enough to justify = making a=20 change. But sooner or later you have to stop engineering for every = possible=20 risk no matter how remote the failure mode and just get on with=20 it.
 
 Meanwhile, the important = points I take=20 from this reference are, dont overload your alternator, ensure that = the=20 field is de-energized while cranking the engine, and keep it=20 cool.
 
 Off topic, another 1.2 hours = closer to=20 completing my Phase 1. This was the first flight that after I landed = I didnt=20 have anything on my list to fix before the next flight. 95 degrees=20 OAT at takeoff today and the oil temp got to 200 at the top of = the=20 climb to 5000' but backed off to 192 after I leveled. H2O temp never = above=20 180. Starting to gain some confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA = muffler on=20 order. Should have it by next weekend but may put off installing it = so I can=20 fly some more.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, August 30, = 2009 1:21=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: = More=20 Charging Circuit Info

  Group,
       I am still on the = bandwagon=20 about modifying our flying alternators for an external
regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying = group=20 member Tim Holt &
also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I = remembered the link
below which explains in language even the electrically = challenged=20 among us will be
able to understand...............This info may have been = already seen=20 by some of you
but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to = have=20 available when wiring
our aircraft electrical = systems.............IMHO!!..........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Kelly Troyer"=20 <keltro@att.net>
To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy = Holt)=20
Subject: More Charging Circuit Info
Date: Sun, 30 Aug = 2009=20 20:06:30 +0000

Tim,
 For your informaton here is additional justification = in my=20 opinion for going to an external
regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either=20 automaticly or manualy cut power
to the field windings in case of a shorted=20 regulator............Note that solid state regulators
tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all = current=20 internal regulators are solid
state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said"=20 !!...............IMHO
 
 
http://www.nflite.com/= ChargingSystem.html
--
Kelly=20 Troyer 




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