X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost04.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.54] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3829910 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 01:20:06 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.54; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1251696005; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=wMAYgV OnJLPRXpLz61ZML5xQOtWgPWKHSW8GYhRCo8Q=; b=QFL7b7vaJgU2NE21NxeL7Bwce PEI2ezIDal75K29/7xMSPlwx74/9ThYPGWYoq56dxlwZmaioaz7TWvkYZTxbw== Received: from fwebmail11.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.111]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc04) with SMTP id <20090831051929H0400g4t8ne>; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:19:30 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.111] Received: from [208.114.43.83] by fwebmail11.isp.att.net; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:19:29 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: More Charging Circuit Info Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 05:19:29 +0000 Message-Id: <083120090519.6165.4A9B5D610006BFB50000181522230650029B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike, Great cooling numbers on your flight testing...........Good to hear= that after all the trials and tribulations you have been through that you = are gaining confidence in your installation.............. The electrical system info may be somewhat dated as you said so every= one has to evaluate for themselves if current equipment failure rates are w= ithin their personal tolerance limits..........Most of us are dealing with 1986-1995 era alternators with unknown mileage/hours on th= em..........I have had failures on these alternators in automobiles............Some times just th= e diode array but once the internal regulator............As luck would have it the failure was an "Open" that t= ime so did not have a runaway voltage condition..............So as I said each of us has to make their ow= n decision on this subject............. If nothing else this link provides a very comprehensive explanation of = the charging system and excellent troubleshooting information for even the most electrically challenged of ou= r little group.............IMHO Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : -----= ---------=20 =EF=BB=BF=20 Hi Kelly, Thanks for the link. Some interesting info, but... What is lacking is any = sort of statistical info to indicate that this is a real problem. I'm not c= onvinced that using a Cherokee as an example system is all that applicable.= And I dont know how old this article is, but gather it is pretty old given= the reference to problems with alternator failures in cars resulting in no= thing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to say that for virtually a= ny car built since the mid 80s, a runaway alternator output would result in= far more than a few burnt out lights. Since virtually all cars these days use internal solid state regulators, i= f these things were prone to failure, and since a runway over volt failure = on any modern car would likely toast some pretty expensive electronics, I'd= expect a fair number of really expensive repairs, warranty issues, etc....= My conclusion is that this type of failure is actually quite rare, but if = you can point to relevant statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ear= s. Some folks are more risk averse than others and a 1 in a million possibili= ty is enough to justify making a change. But sooner or later you have to st= op engineering for every possible risk no matter how remote the failure mod= e and just get on with it. Meanwhile, the important points I take from this reference are, dont overl= oad your alternator, ensure that the field is de-energized while cranking t= he engine, and keep it cool. Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer to completing my Phase 1. This was the= first flight that after I landed I didnt have anything on my list to fix b= efore the next flight. 95 degrees OAT at takeoff today and the oil temp got= to 200 at the top of the climb to 5000' but backed off to 192 after I leve= led. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to gain some confidence in it. Oh, = and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should have it by next weekend but may p= ut off installing it so I can fly some more. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info Group, I am still on the bandwagon about modifying our flying alternators f= or an external regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying group member = Tim Holt & also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I remembered th= e link below which explains in language even the electrically challenged among us = will be able to understand...............This info may have been already seen by so= me of you but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have available w= hen wiring our aircraft electrical systems.............IMHO!!.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy Holt)=20 Subject: More Charging Circuit Info=20 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:06:30 +0000=20 Tim, For your informaton here is additional justification in my opinion for goi= ng to an external regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either automaticly or m= anualy cut power to the field windings in case of a shorted regulator............Note that s= olid state regulators tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current internal regul= ators are solid state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said" !!..............= .IMHO http://www.nflite.com/ChargingSystem.html -- Kelly Troyer=20 --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Hi Mike,
       Great  cooling numbers on yo= ur flight testing...........Good to hear that after all the trials and= tribulations you have been through that you are gaining confidence in your= installation..............
 
      The electrical system info may be somew= hat dated as you said so everyone has to evaluate for themselves if current= equipment failure rates are within their personal tolerance limits...= .......Most of us
are dealing with 1986-1995 era alternators with unknown mileage/hours = on them..........I have had
failures on these alternators  in automobiles............Some tim= es just the diode array but once the internal
regulator............As luck would have it the failure was an "Open" t= hat time so did not have a runaway
voltage condition..............So as I said each of us has to make the= ir own decision on this subject.............
 
    If nothing else this link provides a very comprehen= sive explanation of the charging system and excellent
troubleshooting information for even the most electrically challenged = of our little group.............IMHO
 

Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2= /EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" <rv-4mi= ke@cox.net>: --------------

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Kelly,
 
 Thanks for the link. Some interestin= g info, but... What is lacking is any sort of statistical info to indicate = that this is a real problem. I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an = example system is all that applicable. And I dont know how old this article= is, but gather it is pretty old given the reference to problems with alter= nator failures in cars resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I= 'd venture to say that for virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a run= away alternator output would result in far more than a few burnt out lights= .
 
 Since virtually all cars these days = use internal solid state regulators, if these things were prone to fai= lure, and since a runway over volt failure on any modern car would likely t= oast some pretty expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really = expensive repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type= of failure is actually quite rare, but if you can point to relevant s= tatistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ears.
 
 Some folks are more risk averse than= others and a 1 in a million possibility is enough to justify making a= change. But sooner or later you have to stop engineering for every possibl= e risk no matter how remote the failure mode and just get on with it.
 
 Meanwhile, the important points I ta= ke from this reference are, dont overload your alternator, ensure that the = field is de-energized while cranking the engine, and keep it cool.
 
 Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer = to completing my Phase 1. This was the first flight that after I landed I d= idnt have anything on my list to fix before the next flight. 95 degrees OAT=  at takeoff today and the oil temp got to 200 at the top of the climb = to 5000' but backed off to 192 after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. S= tarting to gain some confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on orde= r. Should have it by next weekend but may put off installing it so I can fl= y some more.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:21 P= M
Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More Chargi= ng Circuit Info

  Group,
       I am still on the bandwagon about= modifying our flying alternators for an external
regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying group me= mber Tim Holt &
also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I remember= ed the link
below which explains in language even the electrically challenged amon= g us will be
able to understand...............This info may have been already seen = by some of you
but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have availa= ble when wiring
our aircraft electrical systems.............IMHO!!..........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "= Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>
To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timot= hy Holt)
Subject: More Charging Circuit Info
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009= 20:06:30 +0000

Tim,
 For your informaton here is additional justification in my opini= on for going to an external
regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either automaticly= or manualy cut power
to the field windings in case of a shorted regulator............Note t= hat solid state regulators
tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current internal = regulators are solid
state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said" !!.........= ......IMHO
 
 
--
Kelly Troyer 


<= BR>
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_1-- --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6165_1251695969_0--