X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.16) with ESMTP id 3829883 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 00:07:43 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.8.00.01.00 201-2244-105-20090324) with ESMTP id <20090831040707.TFNX14181.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 00:07:07 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.80.138]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id as741c0092z3ATG04s76fg; Mon, 31 Aug 2009 00:07:06 -0400 X-VR-Score: 0.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=pZ3smVeKGXoA:10 a=HZJGGiqLAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=JXj8tel4AAAA:8 a=E7ia8IyiFvZG8D_Uws4A:9 a=RL4PnjB2GXNj3ImJIgwA:7 a=633pejhwphdic2ZnOjq9F20d-iQA:4 a=DHgN2xDCXMcA:10 a=HeoGohOdMD0A:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=T-0X9TRFhp0BzGnX:21 a=cEDUJLOx4EQr-KeC:21 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=vMOjatcUl7_6v8atax4A:9 a=-DFF67jVJ9cJpP7cuMUA:7 a=D0A9Mt_4dBsyv40FMKo0NndIGKsA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 21:07:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002C_01CA29B5.D366CEB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01CA29B5.D366CEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kelly, Thanks for the link. Some interesting info, but... What is lacking is = any sort of statistical info to indicate that this is a real problem. = I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an example system is all that = applicable. And I dont know how old this article is, but gather it is = pretty old given the reference to problems with alternator failures in = cars resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to = say that for virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a runaway = alternator output would result in far more than a few burnt out lights. Since virtually all cars these days use internal solid state = regulators, if these things were prone to failure, and since a runway = over volt failure on any modern car would likely toast some pretty = expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really expensive = repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type of = failure is actually quite rare, but if you can point to relevant = statistical data that says otherwise, I'm all ears. Some folks are more risk averse than others and a 1 in a million = possibility is enough to justify making a change. But sooner or later = you have to stop engineering for every possible risk no matter how = remote the failure mode and just get on with it. Meanwhile, the important points I take from this reference are, dont = overload your alternator, ensure that the field is de-energized while = cranking the engine, and keep it cool. Off topic, another 1.2 hours closer to completing my Phase 1. This was = the first flight that after I landed I didnt have anything on my list to = fix before the next flight. 95 degrees OAT at takeoff today and the oil = temp got to 200 at the top of the climb to 5000' but backed off to 192 = after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to gain some = confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should have it = by next weekend but may put off installing it so I can fly some more. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More Charging Circuit Info Group, I am still on the bandwagon about modifying our flying = alternators for an external regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying group = member Tim Holt & also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I = remembered the link below which explains in language even the electrically challenged = among us will be able to understand...............This info may have been already seen = by some of you but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have = available when wiring our aircraft electrical systems.............IMHO!!.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Forwarded Message: --------------=20 From: "Kelly Troyer" =20 To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy Holt)=20 Subject: More Charging Circuit Info=20 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:06:30 +0000=20 Tim, For your informaton here is additional justification in my opinion = for going to an external regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either = automaticly or manualy cut power to the field windings in case of a shorted regulator............Note = that solid state regulators tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current = internal regulators are solid state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said" = !!...............IMHO http://www.nflite.com/ChargingSystem.html -- Kelly Troyer=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01CA29B5.D366CEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi Kelly,
 
 Thanks for the link. Some = interesting info,=20 but... What is lacking is any sort of statistical info to indicate that = this is=20 a real problem. I'm not convinced that using a Cherokee as an example = system is=20 all that applicable. And I dont know how old this article is, but gather = it is=20 pretty old given the reference to problems with alternator failures in = cars=20 resulting in nothing more than burning out lights. I'd venture to say = that for=20 virtually any car built since the mid 80s, a runaway alternator output = would=20 result in far more than a few burnt out lights.
 
 Since virtually all cars these = days use=20 internal solid state regulators, if these things were prone to = failure, and=20 since a runway over volt failure on any modern car would likely toast = some=20 pretty expensive electronics, I'd expect a fair number of really = expensive=20 repairs, warranty issues, etc.... My conclusion is that this type of = failure is=20 actually quite rare, but if you can point to relevant statistical = data that=20 says otherwise, I'm all ears.
 
 Some folks are more risk averse = than others=20 and a 1 in a million possibility is enough to justify making a = change. But=20 sooner or later you have to stop engineering for every possible risk no = matter=20 how remote the failure mode and just get on with it.
 
 Meanwhile, the important points I = take from=20 this reference are, dont overload your alternator, ensure that the field = is=20 de-energized while cranking the engine, and keep it cool.
 
 Off topic, another 1.2 hours = closer to=20 completing my Phase 1. This was the first flight that after I landed I = didnt=20 have anything on my list to fix before the next flight. 95 degrees = OAT at=20 takeoff today and the oil temp got to 200 at the top of the climb to = 5000' but=20 backed off to 192 after I leveled. H2O temp never above 180. Starting to = gain=20 some confidence in it. Oh, and I have a DNA muffler on order. Should = have it by=20 next weekend but may put off installing it so I can fly some = more.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 = 1:21=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] FW: More = Charging=20 Circuit Info

  Group,
       I am still on the bandwagon = about=20 modifying our flying alternators for an external
regulator as noted in my past posts...........After supplying = group=20 member Tim Holt &
also the group with info how to modify the Mazda alternator I = remembered=20 the link
below which explains in language even the electrically challenged = among=20 us will be
able to understand...............This info may have been already = seen by=20 some of you
but I believe all of us should file it and also copy it to have = available=20 when wiring
our aircraft electrical = systems.............IMHO!!..........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Forwarded Message: --------------
From: "Kelly Troyer"=20 <keltro@att.net>
To: tntholt23@bellsouth.net (Timothy = Holt)=20
Subject: More Charging Circuit Info
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 = 20:06:30=20 +0000

Tim,
 For your informaton here is additional justification in = my=20 opinion for going to an external
regulator in our aircraft and having the ability to either = automaticly=20 or manualy cut power
to the field windings in case of a shorted = regulator............Note=20 that solid state regulators
tend to fail "Shorted" about 50% of the time and all current = internal=20 regulators are solid
state.............Link Below..................."Nuff Said"=20 !!...............IMHO
 
 
http://www.nflite.com/= ChargingSystem.html
--
Kelly=20 Troyer 




------=_NextPart_000_002C_01CA29B5.D366CEB0--