X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from outbound-mail.dca.untd.com ([64.136.47.15] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.15) with SMTP id 3770160 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:09:54 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.47.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from Penny (c-98-246-117-71.hsd1.or.comcast.net [98.246.117.71]) by smtpout05.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABFGS5Z4AD2XDXJ for (sender ); Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 07:08:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FE_01CA0B64.72E62140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18005 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18005 X-ContentStamp: 34:17:3378789379 X-MAIL-INFO: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 023b4e0e2e2bcfa73b434a3ecf3f X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkHrTRA+vKLoD4NyhAVWt+8nz6ZvxPBVorw== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.171.42.35|smtpout05.dca.untd.com|smtpout05.dca.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01CA0B64.72E62140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see now. I like the tie offs. It appears that takes care of the x and = y movement. Nice job.=20 Now, that begs the question about z axis. I did a quick calc (could be = wrong), it looks like the two ends of each tube will lengthen by 1/4" if = you go from freezing to warm engine. Nothing you can do to stop the = movement, but perhaps you can reduce the effect. It will push and pull = rad. So if rad mounted too firmly, you have risk. Normally hose ends are = longer to absorb this movement. You might be ok, but I'd change it. Then = there's the bending moment where your rad tube turns. I'd add another = hose just past bend, say 1 ft long or so. This makes your design = insensitive to expansion, vibration. Adds a big safety factor. Finally, you are all done. Then it's time to assume you overlooked = something that will eventually fatigue the tubing. So you super glue = some pieces of thread from tubing to fuselage. If thread breaks, you = have advance notice of fatigue failure down the road.=20 When I do creative stuff, similar to what you've done, I force myself to = sit back and say: "It's going to fail. Now, where and why?". "What = action will reduce risk?" Computer monitoring of coolant pressure is = good one, as pressure will drop long before you run out of coolant.=20 Good job venting rad btw.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop You're right to an extent Al. We are going flex from the oil cooler = to the exterior of the scoop, rigid to the entrance of the cowling, and = flex to the engine. We have flex at the radiator connections, rigid to = the cowling, and flex to the engine. Everything is tied off, just not = apparent in these images. Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Wick=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:58 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Belly Scoop If I'm seeing pics correct, you have hard lines going from one = component to another(oil lines). This is high risk. Makes the = installation sensitive to fatigue failures, differential expansion, = resonance. Take a look at your car, you'll find almost all hard lines = terminated with flexible hose (like your rad lines).=20 Even if you have flexible hose, you need to plan on tying the lines = every few inches to control vibration. The hardlines will become "S" = shaped during flight.=20 If I'm seeing wrong, or you have already planned this = stuff...........never mind. -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: Belly Scoop Couple of more shots. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Greg Ward=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 8:48 PM Subject: Belly Scoop Hi Greg, I am anxious to see what you get on the dyno with your engine! = It should be a screamer! What is the opening size of the belly scoop = and where did you get the scoop? I am thinking of something similar = with my FG. How do you direct the air inside the scoop to go over both = the oil and water exchangers? How do you control the cowl flap? You = said manually??? How? =20 Bill B -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_01FE_01CA0B64.72E62140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I see now. I like the tie offs. It = appears that=20 takes care of the x and y movement. Nice job.
 
Now, that begs the question about z = axis. I did a=20 quick calc (could be wrong), it looks like the two ends of each tube = will=20 lengthen by 1/4" if you go from freezing to warm engine. Nothing you can = do to=20 stop the movement, but perhaps you can reduce the effect. It will push = and pull=20 rad. So if rad mounted too firmly, you have risk. Normally hose ends are = longer=20 to absorb this movement. You might be ok, but I'd change it. Then = there's the=20 bending moment where your rad tube turns. I'd add another hose just past = bend,=20 say 1 ft long or so. This makes your design insensitive to expansion, = vibration.=20 Adds a big safety factor.
 
Finally, you are all done. Then it's = time to assume=20 you overlooked something that will eventually fatigue the tubing. So you = super=20 glue some pieces of thread from tubing to fuselage. If thread breaks, = you have=20 advance notice of fatigue failure down the road.
 
When I do creative stuff, similar to = what you've=20 done, I force myself to sit back and say: "It's going to fail. Now, = where and=20 why?". "What action will reduce risk?" Computer monitoring of coolant = pressure=20 is good one, as pressure will drop long before you run out of coolant.=20
 
Good job venting rad btw.
 
-al wick
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg=20 Ward
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 = 11:20=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

You're right to an extent Al.  We are = going=20 flex from the oil cooler to the exterior of the scoop, rigid to the = entrance=20 of the cowling, and flex to the engine.  We have flex at the = radiator=20 connections, rigid to the cowling, and flex to the engine.  = Everything is=20 tied off, just not apparent in these images.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Wick
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009 10:58=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

If I'm seeing pics correct, you = have hard lines=20 going from one component to another(oil lines). This is high risk. = Makes the=20 installation sensitive to fatigue failures, differential expansion,=20 resonance. Take a look at your car, you'll find almost all hard = lines=20 terminated with flexible hose (like your rad lines).
 
Even if you have flexible hose, you = need to=20 plan on tying the lines every few inches to control vibration. The = hardlines=20 will become "S" shaped during flight.
 
If I'm seeing wrong, or you have = already=20 planned this stuff...........never mind.
 
-al wick
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Greg Ward
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009 10:36=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Fw: = Belly=20 Scoop

 
 
Couple of more = shots.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B in = progress
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Bill Bradburry =
To: Greg Ward =
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, = 2009 8:48=20 PM
Subject: Belly = Scoop

Hi=20 Greg,

I am anxious to = see what you=20 get on the dyno with your engine!  It should be a = screamer! =20 What is the opening size of the belly scoop and where did you = get the=20 scoop?  I am thinking of something similar with my = FG.  How do=20 you direct the air inside the scoop to go over both the oil and = water=20 exchangers?  How do you control the cowl flap?  You = said=20 manually??? How?

 

Bill=20 B

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive = and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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