X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao104.cox.net ([68.230.241.42] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3745316 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:11:13 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.42; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao104.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090705021039.DUBJ17135.fed1rmmtao104.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:10:39 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.87.229]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id C2Aa1c0034wtUdQ042Add9; Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:10:37 -0400 X-VR-Score: -200.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=UPu-AqZTJr8A:10 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=o4_0Fa-lRqn0J72UTaoA:9 a=0BY-WV2869mmBviD2vYA:7 a=tf0KJ7KtjoeJ312i007AXobl0pUA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=uiMDUCUmTZRjq_qq:21 a=slogtXVZuuHTrt0H:21 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=-SJky7elTU1v9fzTujwA:9 a=MXogHMOC6uf-5g05aUoA:7 a=pQ3xYLboX1a0bxgEwFhIISkZD8YA:4 a=KCoI2eIuK5wTOtoD:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ignition Check?? Re: frustrating couple of days Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:10:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0051_01C9FCDB.1BF358E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C9FCDB.1BF358E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to address the issue of remoting the switches. My PCM is located in = a center console just in front of the stick and about 6 inches behind = the EC2. The switches are located in the bottom of the instrument panel = just above the console. So I have a run of about 18" of wire from the = PCM to the switches and about 6 - 8 inches from the PCM to the EC2. If I had mounted the PCM in a conventional location like center of the = instrument panel I'd have had a wire run of about 2'. In other words, = looks to me like the end result is about the same amount of potential = antenna either way. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ignition Check?? Re: frustrating couple of = days Ok, Mike =20 Yes, it does. I just wanted to check and make certain there was no = correlation between your ignition check and corruptions and was not = certain you were or were not performing the ignition check. =20 Adding a small capacitor if a fairly inexpensive ($$ and Time) = attempt at a fix {:>). Since it sounds like you are 99.99% it is not a = wiring or loose pin problem, that leaves two or three possibilities; =20 1.. The wire used to remove the switches does add a larger "antenna" = length to the switches - which would enhance noise reception/=20 2.. The switch debounce may be effected by remoting which might make = problem 1. even worst (if it exists)=20 3.. Some problem inside the EC2=20 =20 The 0.01 ufd cap could affect either condition 1 or 2 - so will be = interested in hearing the results =20 Good Luck =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 11:38 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ignition Check?? Re: frustrating couple of = days =20 Ed, =20 I was not clear in my description of when the problem seems to be = occuring. So to clarify: =20 In my normal tuning of the EC2 I never mess with the B controller. = And have never noted a problem with corruption of EC2 data. When I began = flight testing back in February thats when the problem began to occur. = After 3 instances I stopped flying. =20 I decided it was about time to resume flight test last weekend after = 4 months of mods and ground running without any problems. On saturday I = flipped to the B controller just to see if it was OK and the engine = died. This was not immediately preceeding a planned flight and I did not = perform an ignition check. Over the course of the weekend I had a total = of 4 cases of corrupt data. Three times there was an undefined problem = on B that prevented the engine from running and one case where the A = staging point got corrupted. The ONLY difference between these 4 cases = of failure and the previous 4 months of failure free testing was the = selection of the B controller. I never tested the ignition. =20 These 4 failures occured over the course of approximately 25 engine = starts and a total run time of about 2.5 hours this past weekend. For = each engine start I toggled back and forth between A and B multiple = times at various RPM settings. I estimate around 100 operations of the = A/B switch resulting in 4 failures. The definition of intermittent. =20 Does this clarify? BTW, I am going to take your advice and add a .01uf = cap on the A/B input. What have I got to lose at this point? =20 Thanks, =20 Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Ignition Check?? Re: frustrating couple of days =20 Mike,=20 =20 I could not help but wonder that when you were unsuccessfully = attempting to replicate you B controller problem by switching back and = forth - did you also try your ignition check while in B? You mentioned = that you normally made an ignition check with controller B on in = preparation for flight. However, you did not indicate that you were = making such a check when you were trying to duplicate the problem. =20 =20 IF you did not, then I would suggest that you again try to duplicate = the problem by switching from A to B, but include the ignition check = while in B. Do it a few times and see whether or not B gets corrupted. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 10:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 Steve, =20 My staging point is set at 18" which ends up being around 3300RPM. = So far I still havent been able to prove for certain that the corruption = is linked to switching A > B, much less determine that it only happens = above or below the staging point. =20 All 4 of my injectors are the same - checked them all with an = ohmmeter. They are all of the type that does not require an external = resistor. =20 Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Steven Boese=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 Mike, =20 Is 3000 rpm above your staging point? If the corruption of the = controller only happens when changing from A to B above the staging = point, check to see if one or both secondary injectors have lower = resistance than specified. =20 Steve Boese =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:50 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days =20 Dave, =20 Thanks for the offer and the input. Swapping my EC into your plane = would be a desperation last move due to all of the hassles involved. And = as you say would not necessarily prove anything. =20 I said it happens when I'm preparing to fly, but that isnt = entirely accurate. It would be more accurate to say that in the past it = has happened only when I have switched to the back-up controller which = usually occurs in prep for flight. This past weekend I had fired it up = and taxied down to EAA for lunch. After lunch I taxied back to my hangar = and prior to shutting down I ran the engine up to about 3000 RPM and = switched to the B controller. The engine died and I had to copy the A = program to B to get it to run on B. Switching to B was the only pre = takeoff checklist item I performed. =20 I think about the only thing you hit on here that might be related = is heat. But hard to say without more instances of failure and a way to = link cause and effect. On saturday when the engine quit on B the engine = was completely cowled. On sunday when I had the second instance of an = engine quitting on B, the upper cowl was off but the lower was on. When = the staging point was lost the upper was off, lower on. Yesterday when = the engine quit on the first attempt at switching to B the engine was = completely uncowled. Maybe I'll run it up a few more times today = uncowled and if it works OK, try putting the cowl back on and see if I = can induce failure. Doesnt seem likely though that anything under cowl = could cause this sort of problem. =20 This may all have to wait until Tracy weighs in with his opinion. = I'm not inclined to make drastic changes until I hear from him. =20 Thanks, =20 Mike=20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C9FCDB.1BF358E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just to address the issue of remoting = the switches.=20 My PCM is located in a center console just in front of the stick and = about 6=20 inches behind the EC2. The switches are located in the bottom of the = instrument=20 panel just above the console. So I have a run of about 18" of wire from = the PCM=20 to the switches and about 6 - 8 inches from the PCM to the = EC2.
 
If I had mounted the PCM in a = conventional location=20 like center of the instrument panel I'd have had a wire run of about 2'. = In=20 other words, looks to me like the end result is about the same amount of = potential antenna either way.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 = 9:50=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ignition Check??=20 Re: frustrating couple of days

Ok,=20 Mike

 

Yes, it = does.  I=20 just wanted to check and make certain there was no correlation between = your=20 ignition check and corruptions and was not certain you were or were = not=20 performing the ignition check.

 

Adding a = small=20 capacitor if a fairly inexpensive ($$ and Time)  attempt at a fix = {:>).  Since it sounds like you are 99.99% it is not a wiring = or loose=20 pin problem, that leaves two or three=20 possibilities;

 

  1. The wire used to = remove the=20 switches does add a larger =93antenna=94  length to the = switches =96 which=20 would enhance noise reception/=20
  2. The switch debounce = may be=20 effected by remoting which might make problem 1. even worst (if it=20 exists)=20
  3. Some problem inside = the=20 EC2

 

The 0.01 = ufd cap=20 could affect either condition 1 or 2 =96 so will be interested in = hearing the=20 results

 

Good=20 Luck

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 = 11:38=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Ignition Check??=20 Re: frustrating couple of days

 

Ed,

 

I was not clear in my = description=20 of when the problem seems to be occuring. So to=20 clarify:

 

 In my normal = tuning of the=20 EC2 I never mess with the B controller. And have never noted a problem = with=20 corruption of EC2 data. When I began flight testing back in February = thats=20 when the problem began to occur. After 3 instances I stopped=20 flying.

 

 I decided it was = about time=20 to resume flight test last weekend after 4 months of mods and = ground=20 running without any problems. On saturday I flipped to the B = controller just=20 to see if it was OK and the=20 engine died. This was not immediately preceeding a planned flight and = I did=20 not perform an ignition check. Over the course of the weekend I had a = total of=20 4 cases of corrupt data. Three times there was an undefined problem on = B that=20 prevented the engine from running and one case where the A staging = point got=20 corrupted. The ONLY difference between these 4 cases of failure and = the=20 previous 4 months of failure free testing was the selection of the B=20 controller. I never tested the = ignition.

 

 These 4 failures = occured=20 over the course of approximately 25 engine starts and a total run time = of=20 about 2.5 hours this past weekend. For each engine start I toggled = back and=20 forth between A and B multiple times at various RPM settings. I = estimate=20 around 100 operations of the A/B switch resulting in 4 failures. The=20 definition of intermittent.

 

Does this clarify? BTW, = I am going=20 to take your advice and add a .01uf cap on the A/B input. What have I = got to=20 lose at this point?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Ed=20 Anderson

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: Friday,=20 July 03, 2009 8:39 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Ignition Check?? Re: frustrating couple of=20 days

 

Mike,=20

 

I could = not help=20 but wonder that when you were  unsuccessfully attempting to = replicate=20 you B controller problem by switching back and forth - did you also = try your=20 ignition check while in B?   You mentioned that you = normally made=20 an ignition check with controller B on in preparation for = flight. =20 However, you did not indicate that you were making such a check when = you=20 were trying to duplicate the problem. =  

 

IF you = did not,=20 then I would suggest that you again try to duplicate the problem by=20 switching from A to B, but include the ignition check while in = B.  Do=20 it a few times and see whether or not B gets=20 corrupted.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 = 10:59=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = frustrating=20 couple of days

 

Steve,

 

My staging point is = set at 18"=20 which ends up being around 3300RPM. So far I still havent been able = to prove=20 for certain that the corruption is linked to switching A > B, = much less=20 determine that it only happens above or below the staging=20 point.

 

All 4 of my injectors = are the=20 same - checked them all with an ohmmeter. They are all of the type = that does=20 not require an external resistor.

 

Mike

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Steven = Boese=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Friday, July 03, 2009 9:13 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of=20 days

 

Mike,

 

Is 3000 = rpm above=20 your staging point?  If the corruption of the controller only = happens=20 when changing from A to B above the staging point, check to see if = one or=20 both secondary injectors have lower resistance than=20 specified.

 

Steve=20 Boese

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:50 AM
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = frustrating=20 couple of days

 

Dave,

 

Thanks for the=20 offer and the input. Swapping my EC into your plane would be a = desperation=20 last move due to all of the hassles involved. And as you say would = not=20 necessarily prove anything.

 

I = said it happens=20 when I'm preparing to fly, but that isnt entirely accurate. It = would be=20 more accurate to say that in the past it has happened only = when=20 I have switched to the back-up controller which usually=20 occurs in prep for flight. This past weekend I had fired it = up and=20 taxied down to EAA for lunch. After lunch I taxied back to my = hangar and=20 prior to shutting down I ran the engine up to about 3000 RPM and = switched=20 to the B controller. The engine died and I had to copy the A = program to B=20 to get it to run on B. Switching to B was the only pre = takeoff=20 checklist item I performed.

 

I = think about the=20 only thing you hit on here that might be related is heat. But hard = to say=20 without more instances of failure and a way to link cause and=20 effect. On saturday when the engine quit on B the engine was=20 completely cowled. On sunday when I had the second instance of an = engine=20 quitting on B, the upper cowl was off but the lower was = on. When the=20 staging point was lost the upper was off, lower on. Yesterday when = the=20 engine quit on the first attempt at switching to B the engine was=20 completely uncowled. Maybe I'll run it up a few more times today = uncowled=20 and if it works OK, = try putting=20 the cowl back on and see if I can induce failure. Doesnt seem = likely=20 though that anything under cowl could cause this sort of=20 problem.

 

This = may all have=20 to wait until Tracy weighs in with his = opinion. I'm not=20 inclined to make drastic changes until I hear from=20 him.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C9FCDB.1BF358E0--