X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao102.cox.net ([68.230.241.44] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3744482 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:25:04 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.44; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao102.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090704032430.OKLF20976.fed1rmmtao102.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2009 23:24:30 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.87.229]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id BfQS1c0044wtUdQ04fQVCn; Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:24:29 -0400 X-VR-Score: -430.00 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=z9TpTkzKN9AA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=on22okXAAAAA:8 a=ayC55rCoAAAA:8 a=arxwEM4EAAAA:8 a=QdXCYpuVAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=UretUmmEAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=nUuTZ29dAAAA:8 a=N8B9JuSIAAAA:8 a=B8s_EzYYuwBgr2mAQaUA:9 a=Qq138OzlMBsYYbb5a04A:7 a=aC1a0fAIMfMBnfhCtVpnYl6OpssA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=at0Q5_2dr5wA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=Chmu8DOB56YXCfnh:21 a=Ncebw1Ukkjz3TL86:21 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=GiF8RzuhrvF2NrKe20MA:9 a=JZUx4i2b2RQnGDddIPEA:7 a=d2WFR91Gc1Dv6sA6TKSpHhLfmgUA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=zIu1jgUmyTbW3Elq:21 a=QvItlBh93OjvI8VP:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <830E53E18C824295B197B9B802904708@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Corruption of EC settings Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 20:24:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006D_01C9FC1C.4337E430" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C9FC1C.4337E430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, No I was not aware that you went through similar problems. I was off = this forum for about 4 years during which time you completed your = project and flew it. Your experience seems similar to mine. If anything yours sounds more = severe. Looking back over the past year and a half since I had my first = engine start, I've realized that I've gone through very long stretches = without any of these problems. In fact the first 20 hours of ground run = time I had all of the typical (many self induced) tuning issues, but no = cases of corrupt data that I could identify. It wasnt until after my = first flight that I had it happen. Three times and then I grounded the = airplane. In the subsequent 4 months and an additional 5 hours of run = time on the ground there were no instances of corrupt data until this = past weekend when I started prepping to resume test flying. Since then = in about 2 hours of ground running I've had 4 instances of corrupt data. = Three cases where it wouldnt run on B, but since I have no way to know = whats loaded in B I dont know what exactly is happening there. And one = case of the staging point on the A controller changing to 12". I could probably resume test flying as long as I remain over the = airport. But given my phase 1 test area and the terrain I'd have to = cross to get to something landable I wouldnt want to venture too far = from Brown Field with it like it is. Whats the point of having a backup = controller if you have no confidence in it? My EC2 is also an early one. I've had it so long I cant recall when I = bought it! So as you say, newer units may not have similar issues. And = of course in my case since the problem is unresolved at this point, it = may still be an installation issue, though at this point I'm stumped as = to what that issue may be. I agree that the EC2 is the best option for = the application. When not having these problems, the engine runs great. = Which of course is part of the frustration - with it running so good why = cant I go fly it and have confidence in it? No opportunity to do any further testing today but hope to get back on = it tomorrow. I've sprung an oil leak (previously thought repaired) that = I need to fix before I can start the engine again. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 1:27 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Corruption of EC settings Mike; Mike; You may recall my experience with these issues. I fought with = spontaneous corruption of settings for about a year. I could never = correlate the occurrence with any specific operations. Sometimes it = would happen between startups, sometimes during taxi; sometimes = in-flight. Tracy' explanation was always severe electrical noise. I = double checked everything, re-routed wires, added snubbers, etc. The = occurrences became less frequent; but not did not go away. I never had = a case where some adjustment did not allow fairly normal operation, but = it certainly kept me from feeling 'safe' during flight over rugged = terrain. I finally elicited the help of an expert. We put the oscilloscope on = all parts of the system, and on every pin into/out of the EC2, and ran = all operating modes. We found a few spikes we didn't like; added some = more snubbers and filters on electrical leads; eliminating all of those. = We were sure it would all be fine. During the next 10-15 hours of flying, and I still had occurrences of = pulse width change, stage point shift, correction table changes. = Further work with the oscilloscope and my 'experts' conclusion was he = could see nothing beyond that he considered 'abnormal' electrical or RF = noises. He then took the unit back to his shop, evaluated the = circuitry, and added filters to the board where he deemed necessary. = The unit has operated fine ever since. His conclusion was that the design was not particularly noise = tolerant. My conclusion was that one man's 'normal' noise was another = man's 'severe' noise. Based on the prevalence of the issue, and nothing = else in my airplane, EFIS, digital compass, avionics, whatever; has ever = had an issue, I concluded as well that there was perhaps insufficient = noise tolerance in the EC2.=20 Let me point out that mine is an early version of a 3-rotor unit, and = the issues may not be applicable to others. I'm sure it is possible that there may be noise issues in my system = that we just never saw. And each system is different. I suspect that = is most cases, Tracy is right; that there are electrical issues. But it = is also clear that further filtering on the board solved the problem in = mine. I'm not suggesting at this point that you jump to modifications on = the circuit boards, but at some point, it's a consideration. =20 I know this is being critical of the EC2, so Let me add that, before = my issues were resolved, I had to consider alternatives the RWS EC2. I = always came to the same conclusion: that overall, this was the best = option available; and Tracy's cooperation has been the best. After 150 hours TT, on my last flight the RPM, fuel burn, read-outs on = the EM2 suddenly went to zero during the pre-takeoff run-up checks. I = then sent the data acquisition module back, and Tracy found "corruption = of the program flash memory", and; "only known possibility is severe = electrical noise". Oh, well. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:50 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Dave, Thanks for the offer and the input. Swapping my EC into your plane = would be a desperation last move due to all of the hassles involved. And = as you say would not necessarily prove anything. I said it happens when I'm preparing to fly, but that isnt entirely = accurate. It would be more accurate to say that in the past it has = happened only when I have switched to the back-up controller which = usually occurs in prep for flight. This past weekend I had fired it up = and taxied down to EAA for lunch. After lunch I taxied back to my hangar = and prior to shutting down I ran the engine up to about 3000 RPM and = switched to the B controller. The engine died and I had to copy the A = program to B to get it to run on B. Switching to B was the only pre = takeoff checklist item I performed. I think about the only thing you hit on here that might be related is = heat. But hard to say without more instances of failure and a way to = link cause and effect. On saturday when the engine quit on B the engine = was completely cowled. On sunday when I had the second instance of an = engine quitting on B, the upper cowl was off but the lower was on. When = the staging point was lost the upper was off, lower on. Yesterday when = the engine quit on the first attempt at switching to B the engine was = completely uncowled. Maybe I'll run it up a few more times today = uncowled and if it works OK, try putting the cowl back on and see if I = can induce failure. Doesnt seem likely though that anything under cowl = could cause this sort of problem. This may all have to wait until Tracy weighs in with his opinion. I'm = not inclined to make drastic changes until I hear from him. Thanks, Mike=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 9:28 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Bummer that it is not more consistent.... that really makes it = hard!. I would like to help. If youj want, someday I can fly down and we = can put your EC2 in my plane and see if we can reporduce the issue. (I'm = not so keen about putting mine in your plane I have to admit.) = Unfortunately, sounds like even if we can't get the issue to occur in my = plane, we still haveent proved anything because it is so = intermittent.... You mention it happens more when you are prepairing to fly.. maybe = it is something else that you do when you are about to fly besides just = switching and checking the B controller. Turning on Strobes? checking = injectors? checking lead/trail sparks? checking backup fuel pump? Some = GPS or other avionics? Fuel tank selection? canopy closed switch? Some = particular engine paramiter? Using the brakes? Temperature change by = being in the sun? Cowl in place? Using the Nav/Comm? Headset plugged = in? Something else? A combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, = plugging in headset, transmitting on comm, and switching to B for = example?) Can you make it occur more reliably if you taxi out just as = if you were going to fly? Good Luck Mike,=20 Let me know if you think of something I can do to help. Dave On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:57 PM, Mike Wills wrote: Without knowing details of Tracy's design, hard to say what the real = consequences of relocating the switches is. Tracy did explicitly state = in the manual I got with my EC2 that relocating the switches is an = acceptible option. In any case relocating the switches should not result = in any sort of a "ground loop". Nothing much to report today. On my first start today the engine = quit when I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A > B copy to = get the engine to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so with = multiple starts, toggling back and forth between A and B, but could not = force it to fail again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the = nature of an intermittant, isnt it? About the only thing I can report is that the engine runs richer = throughout the RPM range on B than it does on A. A is setup so that its = at stoich with the mixture knob at 12:00. On B the mixture knob needs to = be at 9:00 for the same indication on the mixture gauge.=20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Whaley" = =20 To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 10:07 AM=20 Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days I believe the ground for the controller unit is made through the = DB15 wire harness to the EC2; by moving the A/B switch you will have = lengthened this ground loop ... maybe try a wire from Controller PCB = common to ground of remote A/B switch. Is it possible for you to put the A/B switch back to original = position? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Mike, per discussion about possible de-bouncing problem. Might try = sticking a 0.01 ufd capacitor from your Controller Switch to Ground - just to eliminate debouncing as the potential problem. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:09 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Minor correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a problem with the B controller. Its that it appears that the problem occurs when I = switch to B, but in the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the = corrupt data was on the A controller. I've been all through the power and ground system. Multiple times. = When I first noted the problem and emailed Tracy about it he suspected = ground noise. After describing my electrical system to him he made two = suggestions: 1) I implemented a single point ground even though I have a metal = airframe. I wanted to avoid ground currents getting into the radio and = intercom. Due to CG issues my batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the = ground connection from the batteries to the single point ground ended up = being about 8' of #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and = tying the battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as possible to = the batteries. I've done this. 2) My ignition coils were also connected to the single point ground = through about 3' of #14 wire. Tracy indicated that the coils are the = greatest potential noise makers on the airplane and recommended grounding = this to the airframe or engine block as close as possible to the coils. I've = done this. I've reviewed all of my wiring to make sure that things that should = be shielded are and to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from = sensitive ones. There were no obvious problems found in my original install in = this regard, but I did move a couple of wires to gain even more = seperation. So as I said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane = are sound. I doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with = the switch itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that = something is going on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the = problem. I'll try to force it in my testing today. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" = To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days Ed, Odd electrical trivia. Older eeproms were rated at 3.3V, so below = 2.7V they ignored any read or write information. We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the data and clock lines = when power was caming up. Since reset occurred once power was good, it = was never an issue. Problem is the eeprom manufactures started = shipping parts that were functional from 1.8V to 3.3V. So once power was at 1.7V, = it accepted writes, corrupting the eeprom. Just to drive the engineers = crazy only some lots and some devices 'jibbered' away. Yes, amazing I = still have any hair left. :) That is pretty rare, but has happened. Yes, Mike -- Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "B" controller. Still triple check the power, grounds, and rest of the connections. Since the fuel map is stored in non-volute memory, it's hard to = figure out how it is being re-written or destroyed. Normally (as you know) = access to EEPROM on a chip is a rather non-trivial process. Since the A and = B controller are two different chips, I suppose there could be a = problem with the B chip - but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. = Have not had one myself (yet). -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C9FC1C.4337E430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
No I was not aware that you went = through similar=20 problems. I was off this forum for about 4 years during which time you = completed=20 your project and flew it.
 
Your experience seems similar to mine. = If anything=20 yours sounds more severe. Looking back over the past year and a half = since I had=20 my first engine start, I've realized that I've gone through very long = stretches=20 without any of these problems. In fact the first 20 hours of ground run = time I=20 had all of the typical (many self induced) tuning issues, but = no cases of=20 corrupt data that I could identify. It wasnt until after my first flight = that I=20 had it happen. Three times and then I grounded the airplane. In the = subsequent 4=20 months and an additional 5 hours of run time on the ground there were no = instances of corrupt data until this past weekend when I started = prepping to=20 resume test flying. Since then in about 2 hours of ground running I've = had 4=20 instances of corrupt data. Three cases where it wouldnt run on B, but = since I=20 have no way to know whats loaded in B I dont know what exactly is = happening=20 there. And one case of the staging point on the A controller changing to = 12".
 
I could probably resume test flying as = long as I=20 remain over the airport. But given my phase 1 test area and the terrain = I'd have=20 to cross to get to something landable I wouldnt want to venture too far = from=20 Brown Field with it like it is. Whats the point of having a backup = controller if=20 you have no confidence in it?
 
My EC2 is also an early one. I've had = it so long I=20 cant recall when I bought it! So as you say, newer units may not have = similar=20 issues. And of course in my case since the problem is unresolved at this = point,=20 it may still be an installation issue, though at this point I'm stumped = as to=20 what that issue may be. I agree that the EC2 is the best option for = the=20 application. When not having these problems, the engine runs=20 great. Which of course is part of the frustration - with it running = so good=20 why cant I go fly it and have confidence in it?
 
No opportunity to do any further = testing today but=20 hope to get back on it tomorrow. I've sprung an oil leak (previously = thought=20 repaired) that I need to fix before I can start the engine = again.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 = 1:27 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Corruption = of EC=20 settings

Mike;

 

Mike;

You may = recall my=20 experience with these issues.  I fought with spontaneous = corruption of=20 settings for about a year. I could never correlate the occurrence with = any=20 specific operations. Sometimes it would happen between startups, = sometimes=20 during taxi; sometimes in-flight.  Tracy=92 = explanation was=20 always severe electrical noise.  I double checked everything, = re-routed=20 wires, added snubbers, etc.  The occurrences became less = frequent; but=20 not did not go away.  I never had a case where some adjustment = did not=20 allow fairly normal operation, but it certainly kept me from feeling = =91safe=92=20 during flight over rugged terrain.

 

I finally = elicited=20 the help of an expert.  We put the oscilloscope on all parts of = the=20 system, and on every pin into/out of the EC2, and ran all operating=20 modes.  We found a few spikes we didn=92t like; added some more = snubbers=20 and filters on electrical leads; eliminating all of those.  We = were sure=20 it would all be fine.

 

During = the next=20 10-15 hours of flying, and I still had occurrences of pulse width = change,=20 stage point shift, correction table changes.  Further work with = the=20 oscilloscope and my =91experts=92 conclusion was he could see nothing = beyond that=20 he considered =91abnormal=92 electrical or RF noises.  He then = took the unit=20 back to his shop, evaluated the circuitry, and added filters to the = board=20 where he deemed necessary.  The unit has operated fine ever=20 since.

 

His = conclusion was=20 that the design was not particularly noise tolerant.  My = conclusion was=20 that one man=92s =91normal=92 noise was another man=92s =91severe=92 = noise.  Based on=20 the prevalence of the issue, and nothing else in my airplane, EFIS, = digital=20 compass, avionics, whatever; has ever had an issue, I concluded as = well that=20 there was perhaps insufficient noise tolerance in the EC2. =

 

Let me = point out=20 that mine is an early version of a 3-rotor unit, and the issues may = not be=20 applicable to others.

 

I=92m = sure it is=20 possible that there may be noise issues in my system that we just = never=20 saw.  And each system is different.  I suspect that is most = cases,=20 Tracy is = right; that=20 there are electrical issues.  But it is also clear that further = filtering=20 on the board solved the problem in mine. I=92m not suggesting at this = point that=20 you jump to modifications on the circuit boards, but at some point, = it=92s a=20 consideration. 

 

I know = this is=20 being critical of the EC2, so Let me add that, before my issues were = resolved,=20 I had to consider alternatives the RWS EC2.  I always came to the = same = conclusion: that=20 overall, this was the best option available; and Tracy=92s = cooperation has=20 been the best.

 

After 150 = hours TT,=20 on my last flight the RPM, fuel = burn,=20 read-outs on the EM2 suddenly went to zero during the pre-takeoff = run-up=20 checks.  I then sent the data acquisition module back, and=20 Tracy found = =93corruption=20 of the program flash memory=94, and; =93only known possibility is = severe=20 electrical noise=94.  Oh, well.

 

Al=20 G

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike = Wills
Sent: Friday, = July 03,=20 2009 7:50=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = frustrating=20 couple of days

 

Dave,

 

Thanks for the offer and = the=20 input. Swapping my EC into your plane would be a desperation last move = due to=20 all of the hassles involved. And as you say would not necessarily = prove=20 anything.

 

I said it happens when = I'm=20 preparing to fly, but that isnt entirely accurate. It would be more = accurate=20 to say that in the past it has happened only when I have = switched to=20 the back-up controller which usually occurs in prep for flight. = This past=20 weekend I had fired it up and taxied down to EAA for lunch. After = lunch I=20 taxied back to my hangar and prior to shutting down I ran the engine = up to=20 about 3000 RPM and switched to the B controller. The engine died and I = had to=20 copy the A program to B to get it to run on B. Switching to B = was the=20 only pre takeoff checklist item I performed.

 

I think about the only = thing you=20 hit on here that might be related is heat. But hard to say without = more=20 instances of failure and a way to link cause and effect. On = saturday when=20 the engine quit on B the engine was completely cowled. On sunday when = I had=20 the second instance of an engine quitting on B, the upper cowl was off = but the=20 lower was on. When the staging point was lost the upper was off, = lower=20 on. Yesterday when the engine quit on the first attempt at switching = to B the=20 engine was completely uncowled. Maybe I'll run it up a few more times = today=20 uncowled and if it works OK, try putting the cowl back on and see if I = can=20 induce failure. Doesnt seem likely though that anything under cowl = could cause=20 this sort of problem.

 

This may all have to = wait until=20 Tracy weighs in=20 with his opinion. I'm not inclined to make drastic changes until I = hear from=20 him.

 

Thanks,

 

Mike 

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: David=20 Leonard

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Thursday, July 02,=20 2009 9:28=20 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days

 

Bummer that it is not more=20 consistent....  that really makes it = hard!.

 

I would like to help.  = If youj=20 want, someday I can fly down and we can put your EC2 in my plane and = see if=20 we can reporduce the issue. (I'm not so keen about putting mine in = your=20 plane I have to admit.)  Unfortunately, sounds like even if we = can't=20 get the issue to occur in my plane, we still haveent proved anything = because=20 it is so intermittent....

 

You mention it happens more = when you=20 are prepairing to fly..  maybe it is something else that you do = when=20 you are about to fly besides just switching and checking the B=20 controller.  Turning on Strobes? checking injectors? = checking=20 lead/trail sparks? checking backup fuel pump? Some GPS or other=20 avionics?  Fuel tank selection? canopy closed switch?  = Some=20 particular engine paramiter?  Using the brakes?  = Temperature=20 change by being in the sun?  Cowl in place?  Using the=20 Nav/Comm?  Headset plugged in?  Something else?  A=20 combination of 2 or more of those above (eg, plugging in headset,=20 transmitting on comm, and switching to B for example?)  Can you = make it=20 occur more reliably if you taxi out just as if you were going to=20 fly?

 

Good Luck Mike,=20

Let me know if you think of = something I=20 can do to help.

 

Dave

On Thu, Jul = 2, 2009 at=20 7:57 PM, Mike Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> wrote:

Without knowing details of=20 Tracy's design, hard to say what the real consequences = of=20 relocating the switches is. Tracy did explicitly state in the manual = I got=20 with my EC2 that relocating the switches is an acceptible option. In = any=20 case relocating the switches should not result in any sort of a = "ground=20 loop".

Nothing much to report today. On my first start today = the=20 engine quit when I switched to the B controller. I had to do a A = > B copy=20 to get the engine to run on B. Test ran for another 1.5 hours or so = with=20 multiple starts, toggling back and forth between A and B, but could = not=20 force it to fail again. Which is kinda disappointing. But thats the = nature=20 of an intermittant, isnt it?

About the only thing I can = report is=20 that the engine runs richer throughout the RPM range on B than it = does on A.=20 A is setup so that its at stoich with the mixture knob at 12:00. On = B the=20 mixture knob needs to be at 9:00 for the same indication on the = mixture=20 gauge.



Mike=20 Wills
RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message = ----- From:=20 "Jeff Whaley" <jwhaley@datacast.com>


To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft"=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>

Sent: = Thursday, July 02,=20 2009 10:07 AM


Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of days


I believe the = ground=20 for the controller unit is made through the DB15 wire harness to the = EC2; by=20 moving the A/B switch you will have lengthened this ground loop ... = maybe=20 try a wire from Controller PCB common to ground of remote A/B = switch.
Is=20 it possible for you to put the A/B switch back to original=20 position?
Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary = motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:53 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating = couple of=20 days

Mike, per discussion about possible de-bouncing problem. =  Might try sticking
a 0.01 ufd capacitor from your = Controller Switch=20 to Ground - just to
eliminate debouncing as the potential=20 problem.

Ed

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of = Mike=20 Wills
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 12:09 PM
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of = days

Minor=20 correction. Its not that I'm only seeing a problem with the = B
controller.=20 Its that it appears that the problem occurs when I switch to = B,
but in=20 the 2 cases where the staging point was corrupted, the corrupt = data
was=20 on the A controller.

I've been all through the power and = ground=20 system. Multiple times. When I
first noted the problem and = emailed Tracy=20 about it he suspected ground
noise. After describing my = electrical system=20 to him he made two suggestions:
1)  I implemented a single = point=20 ground even though I have a metal airframe.

I wanted to avoid = ground=20 currents getting into the radio and intercom. Due
to CG issues my = batteries ended up in the baggage compartment so the = ground
connection=20 from the batteries to the single point ground ended up = being
about 8' of=20 #0 cable. Tracy recommended eliminating this cable and tying=20 the

battery ground terminals to chassis ground as close as = possible=20 to the
batteries. I've done this.
2) My ignition coils were = also=20 connected to the single point ground through
about 3' of #14 = wire. Tracy=20 indicated that the coils are the greatest
potential noise makers = on the=20 airplane and recommended grounding this to the

airframe or = engine=20 block as close as possible to the coils. I've done this.
I've = reviewed=20 all of my wiring to make sure that things that should be
shielded = are and=20 to be sure that noisy wires are seperated from sensitive
ones. = There were=20 no obvious problems found in my original install in this
regard, = but I=20 did move a couple of wires to gain even more seperation.

So = as I=20 said, I believe the power and ground system in the airplane = are
sound. I=20 doubt that remoting the A/B switch, or something wrong with = the
switch=20 itself, is what is causing this, but I do believe that something = is
going=20 on in the act of switching from A to B that is causing the = problem.
I'll=20 try to force it in my testing today.

Mike Wills
RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- From: "thomas walter" = <roundrocktom@yahoo.com>
To: "Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Thursday, July=20 02, 2009 7:26 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: frustrating couple of=20 days



Ed,

Odd electrical trivia.   Older = eeproms=20 were rated at 3.3V, so below 2.7V
they ignored any read or write=20 information.

We had a uC that would start "jabbering" on the = data and=20 clock lines when
power was caming up.   Since reset occurred = once=20 power was good, it was
never an issue.   Problem is the = eeprom=20 manufactures started shipping parts
that were functional from = 1.8V to=20 3.3V.  So once power was at 1.7V, it
accepted writes, = corrupting the=20 eeprom. Just to drive the engineers crazy
only some lots and some = devices=20 'jibbered' away.   Yes, amazing I still have

any hair = left.=20 :)

That is pretty rare, but has happened.

Yes, Mike -- = Interesting you're only seeing an issue with the "B"
controller. = Still=20 triple check the power, grounds, and rest of the
connections.

Since the fuel map is = stored in=20 non-volute memory, it's hard to figure out

 

how it is being = re-written or=20 destroyed. Normally (as you know) access to
EEPROM on a chip is = a=20 rather non-trivial process. Since the A and B
controller are = two=20 different chips, I suppose there could be a problem
with the B = chip -=20 but, while that does happen, it's pretty rare. Have not
had one = myself=20 (yet).






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David = Leonard

Turbo=20 Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.nethttp://RotaryRoster.net

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