X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3681167 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:57:55 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055281737E5 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:57:16 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BBD2115315F for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:57:15 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <1CF87C0AB8054A48B5A3B2A021748F17@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:57:17 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9EC26.7AD76A60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9EC26.7AD76A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn and Ed, What I would like to know is where is the best place to read those heats = to stay within the parameters mentioned.=20 Ideally one would look initially to water out of the engine and water = going into the engine, the same with oil, which to me would give a = better understand of the cooling capability. George (down under) The rotary is a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, = center housing, rotor housing, end housing. Not only are these = dissimilar shapes, they are also dissimilar metals and they have = different thermal loads and cooling passages. The center housing for = instance, has the least room of all the housings for coolant, yet has = the greatest surface area exposed to combustion. (Lucky iron has half = the coefficient of thermal expansion compared to aluminum, or maybe = Mazda did that on purpose). On top of that, the combustion and exhaust = half of the cycle put a lot more heat into the engine than the = compression, and the intake actually cools it. When the engine heats up = (or cools off) all these parts heat and expand at different rates. The = water seals are sandwiched between these layers and somehow have to deal = with this. The hotter the engine gets, the greater the effect. Those = thin, fragile water seals get twisted and stretched, the damage is = cumulative, and you can't see it until suddenly you need an engine = rebuild. 235 is too hot. If your coolant temp got to 235, consider yourself = fortunate you don't have to rebuild. A good temperature is 180-200, = over 200 is pushing it. You can run a little hotter in a plane because = it's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt sort of heat changes that = kill car motors. But not 40 degrees hotter. I think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the = same stuff the car tuners went through a decade or two ago. There are = going to be a lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if = everyone is flying around with temps 210+ all the time. On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Point taken, Lynn. I guess I was impressed John could run it for 55 minutes and only = get 235F. If I run mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps would = already be climbing over 200F. While not necessarily recommending it = for others, my red line for oil is 200F (into block) and 220F coolant = (out of block). I normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 = minutes during take off and initial climbout. =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:14 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Water temps Allow me to speculate: I suggest that watertemps above 210 are out of bounds. Thus it = should be looked at as something you got away with, not a number to look = for in normal operation. I would retorque the stack cold if I had seen = those numbers. (235) Here is some dyno stuff for a 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM = chokes in a Weber carb. 6500 RPM (because there is no point in testing a racing engine below = that), and even then it is to put up a starting point for a curve. Torque 139.6 foot pounds. HP 173.3 EGTs 1515 front 1491 rear BSFC .666 (the devils own) oil temp 162 (160 is ideal) Above 160 costs power due to rotor face = temperatures. Oil pressure 99.9 (relief set at 110 pounds) Water temp is always 180 controlled by the cooling system on the = dyno.=20 Air/fuel 12.3 (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and = sealing) I would expect to get as much as 10% more power from a 13B. Lynn E. Hanover Interesting questions: Is that data at full throttle? You can hold cruise RPM at an A/F of 15?=20 Today I ran the engine .9 hour, .7th's static at 4700 rpm - 13B, = Marcotte 2 - l redrive Water temp 235 OAT 61 Spring = hasn't arrived above the 44th parallel oil temp 215 yet Exh. temp 1500 Prop speed 2350 MP 28 oil pres 75 air - fuel 15 to 1 fuel press 42 .2 hr high speed taxi Water temp 188 oil temp 160 Ex temp 1400 Prop speed 2500 MP 28 fuel press 42 The static engine run temperatures climbed quite a bit with the = cowling on and working on the programming I didn't notice that this was = happening, but they went right down when I idled back. I will have to pull the cowling in the morning and check the = redrive, it appears the seal is leaking on the flywheel side. With no = support from Marcotte, I may have too much 80w in the gearbox. I = believe that the temperatures look good for flight. JohnD ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9EC26.7AD76A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn and Ed,
What I would like to know is = where is the best=20 place to read those heats to stay within the parameters =20 mentioned. 
 
Ideally one would look initially to = water out of=20 the engine and water going into the engine, the same with oil, which to = me would=20 give a better understand of the cooling capability.
 
George (down under)
The=20 rotary is a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, center = housing,=20 rotor housing, end housing.  Not only are these dissimilar = shapes, they=20 are also dissimilar metals and they have different thermal loads and = cooling=20 passages.  The center housing for instance, has the least room of = all the=20 housings for coolant, yet has the greatest surface area exposed to=20 combustion.  (Lucky iron has half the coefficient of thermal = expansion=20 compared to aluminum, or maybe Mazda did that on purpose).  On = top of=20 that, the combustion and exhaust half of the cycle put a lot more heat = into=20 the engine than the compression, and the intake actually cools it. = When the=20 engine heats up (or cools off) all these parts heat and expand at = different=20 rates.  The water seals are sandwiched between these layers and = somehow=20 have to deal with this.  The hotter the engine gets, the greater = the=20 effect.  Those thin, fragile water seals get twisted and = stretched, the=20 damage is cumulative, and you can't see it until suddenly you need an = engine=20 rebuild.

235 is too hot.  If your coolant temp got to 235, = consider yourself fortunate you don't have to rebuild.  A good=20 temperature is 180-200, over 200 is pushing it.  You can run a = little=20 hotter in a plane because it's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt = sort of=20 heat changes that kill car motors.  But not 40 degrees = hotter.

I=20 think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the same = stuff=20 the car tuners went through a decade or two ago.  There are going = to be a=20 lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if everyone is = flying=20 around with temps 210+ all the time.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

Point = taken,=20 Lynn.

 

I guess I = was=20 impressed John could run it for 55 minutes and only get 235F.  = If I run=20 mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps would already be climbing = over=20 200F.  While not necessarily recommending it for others, my red = line=20 for oil is 200F (into block) and 220F coolant (out of block).  = I=20 normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 minutes during take = off and=20 initial climbout. 

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /P>

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn = Hanover
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 = 9:14=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Water temps

 

Allow me to=20 speculate:

I suggest that = watertemps above=20 210 are out of bounds. Thus it should be looked at as something you = got away=20 with, not a number to look for in normal operation. I would retorque = the=20 stack cold if I had seen those numbers. (235)

Here is some dyno = stuff for a=20 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM chokes in a Weber=20 carb.

6500 RPM (because = there is no=20 point in testing a racing engine below that), and even then it is to = put up=20 a starting point for a curve.

Torque 139.6 foot=20 pounds.

HP = 173.3

EGTs 1515 front 1491=20 rear

BSFC .666 (the devils=20 own)

oil temp 162 (160 is = ideal)=20 Above 160 costs power due to rotor face = temperatures.

Oil pressure 99.9 = (relief=20 set at 110 pounds)

Water temp is always = 180=20 controlled by the cooling system on the dyno.

Air/fuel  = 12.3 =20 (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and = sealing)

I would expect to get = as much as=20 10% more power from a 13B.

Lynn E.=20 Hanover

Interesting questions: = Is that=20 data at full throttle?

You can hold cruise = RPM at an=20 A/F of 15?

 

 

Today I ran the engine = .9 hour,=20 .7th's static at 4700 rpm -  13B, Marcotte 2 - l=20 redrive

 

Water=20 temp        =20 = 235           &nbs= p;  =20 OAT =20 61            = Spring=20 hasn't arrived above the 44th parallel

oil=20 = temp           &nb= sp; =20 = 215           &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 yet

Exh.=20 = temp         1500

Prop=20 speed        = 2350

MP          &nbs= p;          =20 28

oil=20 = pres           &nb= sp;   =20 75

air -=20 fuel         15 to=20 1

fuel=20 = press           &n= bsp;=20 42

 

.2 hr high speed=20 taxi

 

Water=20 temp        =20 188

oil=20 = temp           =20    160

Ex=20 = temp           &nb= sp;=20 1400

Prop=20 = speed         2500

MP          &nbs= p;            = ;=20 28

fuel=20 = press           &n= bsp;  =20 42

 

The static engine run=20 temperatures climbed quite a bit with the cowling on and working on = the=20 programming I didn't notice that this was happening, but they went = right=20 down when I idled back.

I will have to pull = the cowling=20 in the morning and check the redrive, it appears the seal is leaking = on the=20 flywheel side.  With no support from Marcotte, I may have too = much 80w=20 in the gearbox.  I believe that the temperatures look good for=20 flight. =20 = JohnD

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