X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f204.google.com ([209.85.221.204] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3681136 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:42:43 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.204; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk42 with SMTP id 42so3497644qyk.7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:42:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=jTNQoZV08TfsXYTwrSnn/Xs36b+eN5Iukp+/9exIEWI=; b=TsPLGEolhduh3uW2lvkZ/fK38G0dJWl1Y7F1XpZqzxvDCzlj7saUPFfmUie2svASKk ayCx7NoXvxvC27kqLysMpes8ASwUmNFLncKgwVDJIhNPRrvv148lFIbdrlPgH6XFIAeP QQPSw8otoQkEB/8mVEmMMiz2NTjxPuxL8ukFI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=G1fii4B6yRBbRvZ7Plj5q7PN0n38cCrLjFqP998V+vWKFGWxx3paSejpktF4n3WOV8 VP3uZXubsQ4/cMpSg/UlDt42AMFPyjN9TOy8+YvKgy5mFsBUIzYkdSdESh1fcQwiletN wMmmbejQRQfBALeDPOY5C5A5ABayxtzk7PsKI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.89.3 with SMTP id c3mr5022628qam.373.1244857328224; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:42:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:42:08 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 4dec8f1dff7a3cbc Message-ID: <1b4b137c0906121842v7fdc473ay4dc90ace0e4b48e7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175caf48d84bd7046c30ee09 --0015175caf48d84bd7046c30ee09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I doubt the bolts stretched, my guess is that the rotorhousings shrunk (or were compressed) when hot. I'm also guessing that the housings got a LOT hotter than 260. 260 is just the temp of the coolant steam that was heatin= g the sensor. The dry parts of the engine were really cooking. My engine went to about the same temp once but I immediately reduced power to absolute minimum in glide to get to airport (about 4 minutes) and engine lived to fly hundreds of more hours. I was using TES O-rings as well. I think they are worth while in spite of the greater difficulty of installation. Tracy On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 9:27 PM, Mike Perry wrote: > I am in the process of rebuilding my engine after my water pump seal > blew and my water temp went to 260 on the 10 minute flight back to the > airport. The water pump was replaced and coolant topped off with no leak= s > on a cold engine. Started the engine and within 2 minutes temps went ove= r > 220. Shut it down and watched coolant flow out both exhaust pipes. > > The engine was originally rebuilt with the factor O rings and I plan on > using Tracy's teflon kit. When I was taking the engine apart I noticed o= ne > of the tension bolts was barely hand tight. The others were definitely n= ot > tight enough to meet torque specs. My question is do these bolts stretch > and need replacing? Also do you still use the hylomar gasket sealer or i= s > there something better? > > Mike Perry > Long EZ > N981MP > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ed Anderson > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2009 8:51 PM > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps > > Using stock Mazda coolant =93O=94 rings and exceeding those temperatures > would indeed compromise the =93O=94 rings and you end up with coolant in = your > combustion chamber and/or combustion gases in your coolant galleys =96 I = know > - as it happened to me as well as others when first sorting out my > installation back over 10 years ago. > > > > However, once we found and substituted TES (Teflon Encapsulate Silicon) > coolant =93O=94 rings with a much higher temperature rating, and Viton s= eals > for the oil ring seals, it became quickly apparent that a lot of the > problem with elevated temperatures had been the =93O=94 rings and somewha= t > higher temperatures could now be sustained without any apparent damage o= r > problems. Not to say, higher temperatures are recommended, but many of u= s > have found brief excursions above 200F do not cause any detectable proble= ms. > > > > > > > My normal cruise coolant and oil temps are within 5F of each other and > normally range from 160F to 185F at cruise depending on power levels and > OAT. So as a percentage of operating time, my temperature excursions are= on > the order of 1.6% of my total engine operating time. On a hot 90+ day, I > will exceed 200F during climbout until I hit 120 MPH IAS =96 usually a br= ief > period of from 2-3 minutes before airflow catches up with heat being > produced. > > > > Numerous rotary installations now fly with red lines above what would hav= e > been prudent if using the older stock Mazda =93O=94 rings. I have over = 8 years > on my installation with TES =93O=94 rings, Tracy Crook over 15 years the = vast > majority of it with the TES =93O=94 rings. So until we get some aircraf= t with > over 2000 hours on an engine (and set of TES O rings), we really won=92t = know > whether these brief excursions are resulting in accumulated ill effects o= r > not. If it takes 2000 + hour to manifest itself =96 then I am not concer= ned. > > > > There is no question that the rotary can not, for the reasons mentioned b= y > several, with stand the temperature ranges of most piston engines =96 how= ever, > we are not quite as bound by earlier limits (at least for limited time > periods) as we once were. Thanks to sturdier seals. > > > > We had 8 rotary powered aircraft at the Texas Rotary Round up and it woul= d > be interesting to know how many have exceeded 200F and any heat associate= d > problems. Although most have less than 500 hours, so not a true indicati= on > of what to expect one way or the other > > > > Time changes, technology advances and improvements are found. > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.65/2171 - Release Date: 06/12/0= 9 > 05:55:00 > > --0015175caf48d84bd7046c30ee09 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I doubt the bolts stretched, my guess is that the rotorhousings shrunk (or = were compressed) when hot.=A0 I'm also guessing that the housings got a= LOT hotter than 260.=A0 260 is just the temp of the coolant steam that was= heating the sensor.=A0=A0 The dry parts of the engine were really cooking.=

My engine went to about the same temp once but I immediately reduced po= wer to absolute minimum in glide to get to airport (about 4 minutes) and en= gine lived to fly hundreds of more hours.=A0 I was using TES O-rings as wel= l.=A0 I think they are worth while in spite of the greater difficulty of in= stallation.

Tracy

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 9:27 PM= , Mike Perry <= MKPerry99@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
I am in the process of rebuilding my e= ngine after=20 my water pump seal blew=A0and my water temp went to 260 on the 10 minute=20 flight back to the airport.=A0=A0The water pump was replaced and coolant=20 topped off with no leaks on a cold engine.=A0=A0Started the engine and=20 within 2 minutes temps went over 220.=A0 Shut it down and watched coolant= =20 flow out both exhaust pipes.
=A0
The engine was originally rebuilt with= the factor O=20 rings and I plan on using Tracy's teflon kit.=A0 When I was taking=A0th= e=20 engine apart I noticed one of the tension bolts was barely hand tight.=A0 T= he=20 others were definitely not tight enough to meet torque specs.=A0 My questio= n=20 is do these bolts stretch and need replacing?=A0 Also do you still use the= =20 hylomar gasket sealer or is there something better?
=A0
Mike Perry
Long EZ
N981MP=A0
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:51 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Water=20 temps

Using stock Mazda=20 coolant =93O=94 rings and exceeding those temperatures would indeed compr= omise the=20 =93O=94 rings and you end up with coolant in your combustion chamber and/= or=20 combustion gases in your coolant galleys =96 I know - as it happened to m= e as=20 well as others when first sorting out=A0 my installation back over 10 yea= rs=20 ago.

=A0

However, once we=20 found and =A0substituted TES (Teflon Encapsulate Silicon) coolant =A0=93O= =94=20 rings with a much higher temperature rating, and Viton seals for the oil = ring=20 seals, =A0it became quickly apparent that a lot of the problem with=20 elevated temperatures had been the =93O=94 rings and somewhat =A0higher= =20 temperatures could now be sustained without any apparent damage or=20 problems.=A0 Not to say, higher temperatures are recommended, but many of= =20 us have found brief excursions above 200F do not cause any detectable=20 problems.

=A0

=A0

My normal cruise=20 coolant and oil temps are within 5F of each other and normally range from= 160F=20 to 185F at cruise depending on power levels and OAT.=A0 So as a percentag= e=20 of operating time, my temperature excursions are on the order of 1.6% of = my=20 total engine operating time.=A0 On a hot 90+ day, I will exceed 200F duri= ng=20 climbout until I hit 120 MPH IAS =96 usually a brief period of from 2-3 m= inutes=20 before airflow catches up with heat being produced.=A0=20

=A0

Numerous rotary=20 installations now fly with red lines above what would have been =A0pruden= t=20 if using the older stock Mazda =93O=94 rings.=A0 I have over 8 years on m= y=20 installation with TES =93O=94 rings, Tracy Crook over 15 years the vast m= ajority=20 of it with the TES =A0=93O=94 rings.=A0 So until we get some aircraft wit= h=20 over 2000 hours on an engine (and set of TES O rings), we really won=92t = know=20 whether these brief excursions are resulting in accumulated ill effects o= r=20 not.=A0 If it takes 2000 + hour to manifest itself =96 then I am not=20 concerned.

=A0

There is no question=20 that the rotary can not, for the reasons mentioned by several, with stand= the=20 temperature ranges of most piston engines =96 however, we are not quite a= s bound=20 by earlier limits (at least for limited time periods) as we once were.=A0= =20 Thanks to sturdier seals.

=A0

We had 8 rotary=20 powered aircraft at the Texas Rotary Round up and it would be interesting= to=20 know how many have exceeded 200F and any heat associated problems.=A0=20 Although most have less than 500 hours, so not a true indication of what = to=20 expect one way or the other

=A0

Time changes,=20 technology advances and improvements are found.

=A0

Ed

=A0

=A0


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG -= =20 www.avg.com
Vers= ion: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.65/2171 - Release=20 Date: 06/12/09 05:55:00

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