X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.234] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3681099 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:13:09 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.234; envelope-from=fluffysheap@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f9so700645rvb.7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:12:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Rqy1kJeN30cOAuq3XmWi1lLzth2WAI/qqVoaiNC1ASc=; b=uY2p5gJCf+6LnsmGBVUMgwjDTI0gyXj/+j8anNy9FFxN+rA3M3OBahZynsXGLBiPfL MNkAjKAbhlYXt+eIT1IwIXRrjDnvLdQ1t2thNXOsEdtTP53ABqYJGfw+APj7YO5BNofk 9MZO+/Jdhbw991ICGCHGdifrRg1UiMR4K4C/w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=YzbhFwl6WhvPFgawkTqsktNzxRPeRoHS8LV6wiFvFtn1xhcgqNyR3HTKHZsHYGOf2L ppXIaCCwtx9umgoAVCYXp+16CHpoiPW4SZLliTgD1/EnHP2sCfUVsiXC0IG4hGdeSgNP mcBHTvo1WVP1UHv7gVLrwUuSQtGpFyQJ5Oo9c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.141.75.12 with SMTP id c12mr3439118rvl.116.1244851954144; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:12:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:12:34 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Water temps From: William Wilson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd156bc8658fb046c2faebb --000e0cd156bc8658fb046c2faebb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The rotary is a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, center housing, rotor housing, end housing. Not only are these dissimilar shapes, they are also dissimilar metals and they have different thermal loads and cooling passages. The center housing for instance, has the least room of all the housings for coolant, yet has the greatest surface area exposed to combustion. (Lucky iron has half the coefficient of thermal expansion compared to aluminum, or maybe Mazda did that on purpose). On top of that, the combustion and exhaust half of the cycle put a lot more heat into the engine than the compression, and the intake actually cools it. When the engine heats up (or cools off) all these parts heat and expand at different rates. The water seals are sandwiched between these layers and somehow have to deal with this. The hotter the engine gets, the greater the effect. Those thin, fragile water seals get twisted and stretched, the damage is cumulative, and you can't see it until suddenly you need an engine rebuild. 235 is too hot. If your coolant temp got to 235, consider yourself fortunate you don't have to rebuild. A good temperature is 180-200, over 200 is pushing it. You can run a little hotter in a plane because it's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt sort of heat changes that kill car motors. But not 40 degrees hotter. I think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the same stuff the car tuners went through a decade or two ago. There are going to be a lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if everyone is flying around with temps 210+ all the time. On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: > Point taken, Lynn. > > > > I guess I was impressed John could run it for 55 minutes and only get > 235F. If I run mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps would already be > climbing over 200F. While not necessarily recommending it for others, my > red line for oil is 200F (into block) and 220F coolant (out of block). I > normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 minutes during take off and > initial climbout. > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *On > Behalf Of *Lynn Hanover > *Sent:* Friday, June 12, 2009 9:14 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Water temps > > > > Allow me to speculate: > > I suggest that watertemps above 210 are out of bounds. Thus it should be > looked at as something you got away with, not a number to look for in normal > operation. I would retorque the stack cold if I had seen those numbers. > (235) > > Here is some dyno stuff for a 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM chokes > in a Weber carb. > > 6500 RPM (because there is no point in testing a racing engine below that), > and even then it is to put up a starting point for a curve. > > Torque 139.6 foot pounds. > > HP 173.3 > > EGTs 1515 front 1491 rear > > BSFC .666 (the devils own) > > oil temp 162 (160 is ideal) Above 160 costs power due to rotor face > temperatures. > > Oil pressure 99.9 (relief set at 110 pounds) > > Water temp is always 180 controlled by the cooling system on the dyno. > > Air/fuel 12.3 (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and sealing) > > I would expect to get as much as 10% more power from a 13B. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > Interesting questions: Is that data at full throttle? > > You can hold cruise RPM at an A/F of 15? > > > > > > Today I ran the engine .9 hour, .7th's static at 4700 rpm - 13B, Marcotte > 2 - l redrive > > > > Water temp 235 OAT 61 Spring hasn't > arrived above the 44th parallel > > oil temp 215 yet > > Exh. temp 1500 > > Prop speed 2350 > > MP 28 > > oil pres 75 > > air - fuel 15 to 1 > > fuel press 42 > > > > .2 hr high speed taxi > > > > Water temp 188 > > oil temp 160 > > Ex temp 1400 > > Prop speed 2500 > > MP 28 > > fuel press 42 > > > > The static engine run temperatures climbed quite a bit with the cowling on > and working on the programming I didn't notice that this was happening, but > they went right down when I idled back. > > I will have to pull the cowling in the morning and check the redrive, it > appears the seal is leaking on the flywheel side. With no support from > Marcotte, I may have too much 80w in the gearbox. I believe that the > temperatures look good for flight. JohnD > --000e0cd156bc8658fb046c2faebb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The rotary is a sandwich of layers - end housing, rotor housing, center hou= sing, rotor housing, end housing.=A0 Not only are these dissimilar shapes, = they are also dissimilar metals and they have different thermal loads and c= ooling passages.=A0 The center housing for instance, has the least room of = all the housings for coolant, yet has the greatest surface area exposed to = combustion.=A0 (Lucky iron has half the coefficient of thermal expansion co= mpared to aluminum, or maybe Mazda did that on purpose).=A0 On top of that,= the combustion and exhaust half of the cycle put a lot more heat into the engine than the compression, and the intake actually cools it. When the engine heats up (or cools off) all these parts heat and = expand at different rates.=A0 The water seals are sandwiched between these = layers and somehow have to deal with this.=A0 The hotter the engine gets, t= he greater the effect.=A0 Those thin, fragile water seals get twisted and s= tretched, the damage is cumulative, and you can't see it until suddenly= you need an engine rebuild.

235 is too hot.=A0 If your coolant temp got to 235, consider yourself f= ortunate you don't have to rebuild.=A0 A good temperature is 180-200, o= ver 200 is pushing it.=A0 You can run a little hotter in a plane because it= 's a gentle, constant heat, not the abrupt sort of heat changes that ki= ll car motors.=A0 But not 40 degrees hotter.

I think rotary-engine plane builders are going through a lot of the sam= e stuff the car tuners went through a decade or two ago.=A0 There are going= to be a lot of guys with blown water seals in a couple years, if everyone = is flying around with temps 210+ all the time.

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 7:09 AM, Ed Anderson= <eanders= on@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Point taken, Lynn.

=A0

I guess I was impressed John could= run it for 55 minutes and only get 235F.=A0 If I run mine for over 2-3 minutes at WOT my temps would already be climbing over 200F.=A0 While not necessarily recommending it for others, my red line for oil is 200F (into block) and 22= 0F coolant (out of block).=A0 I normally do not stay at these temps beyond 2-3 minutes during take off and initial climbout.=A0

=A0

From: Ro= tary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hanover
Sent: Friday, June 12, 200= 9 9:14 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Water= temps

=A0

Allow me to speculate:

I suggest that watertemps above 210 are out of bounds. Thus it should be looked at as something you got away with, not a number to look for in normal operation. = I would retorque the stack cold if I had seen those numbers. (235)

Here is some dyno stuff for a 12A bridgeported engine with two 36MM chokes in a Weber ca= rb.

6500 RPM (because there is no point in testing a racing engine below that), and even then it is to put up a starting point for a curve.

Torque 139.6 foot pounds.

HP 173.3

EGTs 1515 front 1491 rear

BSFC .666 (the devils own)

oil temp 162 (160 is ideal) Above 160 costs power due to rotor face temperatures.=

Oil pressure=A099.9 (relief set at 110 pounds)

Water temp is always 180 controlled by the cooling system on the dyno. <= /p>

Air/fuel=A0 12.3=A0 (slightly rich is fine as it helps cooling and sealing)

I would expect to get as much as 10% more power from a 13B.

Lynn E. Hanover

Interesting questions: Is that data at full throttle?

You can hold cruise RPM at an A/F of 15?

=A0

=A0

Today I ran the engine .9 hour, .7th's static at 4700 rpm -=A0 13B, Marcotte 2 - l redrive

=A0

Water temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 235=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 OAT=A0 61=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Spring hasn't arrived above the 44th parallel

oil temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 215=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 yet

Exh. temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A01500

Prop speed=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2350

MP=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 28

oil pres=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 75

air - fuel=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 15 to 1

fuel press=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 42

=A0

.2 hr high speed taxi

=A0

Water temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 188

oil temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0 160

Ex temp=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 1400

Prop speed=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02500

MP=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0 28

fuel press=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 42

=A0

The static engine run temperatures climbed quite a bit with the cowling on and working= on the programming I didn't notice that this was happening, but they went = right down when I idled back.

I will have to pull the cowling in the morning and check the redrive, it appears the se= al is leaking on the flywheel side.=A0 With no support from Marcotte, I may have too much 80w in the gearbox.=A0 I believe that the temperatures look good for flight.=A0 JohnD


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