flyrotary@lancaironline.net Mailing List Archive

Well, what can I say George. You've been excommunicated like a number of others on this list. Trust me you won't miss the other list. I've been off of it for around 4 years now and I like the way folks on this list try to help folks rather than build ego castles {:>) Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:36 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 Thanks Ed, I gathered that was the case and I must say I agree with you, although I am electronics challenged. Got to start somewhere I guess! BTW looks like I'm suspended from the other discussion group, can't work out what I did wrong - I just tried to be helpful to a chap in regard to information on carbies. Must have said something that conflicted with someone else's opinion. George (down under) > Thanks, Bob > > George - what Bob says. AeroElectric has good information and some good > products. The only thing I've really disagreed with Bob K is regarding > fuses vs circuit breakers. I favor Circuit breakers for all critical > items, > but use fuses for non-critical, Bob K (AeroElectric) favors fuses for > everything. He makes a good case, but in my 2000 + hours of flying in the > military - I found numerous occasions where resetting a circuit breaker > returned power. Not every time by any means, but often enough to make me > prefer circuit breakers - resetting a circuit breaker may (or may not) > help, > but try resetting a fuse {:>) > > Ed > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Bob White > Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 6:17 PM > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 > > Hi George, > > I'm not Ed, but what the heck. > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator/?AeroElectric-List to subscribe to > the AeroElectric list. You will get 20 - 30 messages per day. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/ is Bob's web site (It' really Bob N.) > Click on "Catalog of Products" to order his book and other stuff. > > Bob knows his stuff. (Like Ed I prefer circuit breakers though.) Bob > is great at explaining his reasons for everything he says. > > Bob W. > > > > On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 07:39:40 +1000 > "George Lendich" <lendich@aanet.com.au> wrote: > >> >> Ed, >> Where do I find info on Bob K and the electronics mentioned? >> George (down under) >> >> >> Thanks, Bill >> >> >> >> Well, no doubt pot-shots will be taken by some, but for the most part, > folks are appreciative to have the facts (as best I know them) as it could > possibly happen to them - or some variation. Back when I first got > started > (1992), I really did not know Bob K and his deserved reputation. In fact, > because of his view about fuses vs Circuit breakers - which I disagreed > with > him about at least for crucial systems - may have influence my assessment > of > his excellent wiring diagrams. >> >> >> >> You are correct about the alternator; I was somewhat surprised when I > discovered that once my alternator (auto) starts producing voltage, > pulling > the field coil circuit breaker does not shut down the alternator. So your > suggestion to use a modified one makes good sense. >> >> >> >> I always say you "..Live and learn - provided you live!.." I am always > prepared to learn from my mistakes. So far I haven't committed the same > one > twice. >> >> >> >> In any case, if my "full disclosure" reporting precludes even one >> person > from experiencing such excitement and leaves me with my "glider time" > record > intact - that is payback enough {:>). >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of Ed Anderson >> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 2:04 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 >> >> >> >> Hi David, >> >> >> >> You ever hear that old saying ".it seemed like a good idea at the >> time." > ? {:>) I agree that Bob's stuff is a good place to start. I also > realized > exactly what you point out. While I could isolate my battery from a > failed > (or good for that matter {:>)) alternator - with my design, I could do > nothing to isolate my essential bus from a bad battery. The only reason I > can give you (10+ years later) is that I apparently viewed the alternator > as > the likely cause of a problem, since I swap my batteries out every two > years. But, clearly a new battery short - an open circuit would not > likely > pose a real problem - an no essential bus power. >> >> >> >> Along those same lines of thinking, is probably why I had the battery > voltage holding the master relay closed. >> >> >> >> Clearly pilot played major role in this incident from one 10 year point > to the next 10 year point. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regarding the "fancy" voltmeter switch, at the time since I had two > batteries and an alternator, it seemed like a good idea to be able to know > the state of the three power devices. Having it just to the main circuit > did not seem to provide any information on the voltage state of each > battery. I like, it did not case the problem, so I'll leave it in there. > No amp meter. >> >> >> >> I agree there is some rewiring in the very near future. I do find it > sort of Ironic that the very thing I put in to permit me to have > sufficient > time (battery time) to get to an airfield - showed that it could do just > that {:>). The two year old 17AH battery showed it could easily provide > 30 > minutes of quality voltage. It did not start to get really nasty until > approx 50 minutes after launch (with two EFI and boost pumps running - I > turn one EFI and boost pump off at cruise altitude). >> >> >> >> Past 50 minutes, things were clearly going to Hades in a hand basket, > my EFISM showed the EC2 was still sending the correct pulse duration to > injectors (based on my fuel flow reading), however, there was simply not > enough voltage/power to pull the injectors completely open or for long > enough. All in all I was pleased how long things did stay functional. > Based on the measured voltage later on the ground (where it might have a > chance to recovery some) the battery was reading six volts. So things > probably continue to work/more or less down to around 7-8 volts. >> >> >> >> >> >> Some good suggestions David. One of the reasons for providing these > incidents is so that folks can learn from them (self included). >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- >> >> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > Behalf Of David Leonard >> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 1:03 PM >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 >> >> >> >> Hi Ed, >> >> >> >> Great job handling the emergency! Very nice write up. I do have to > admit that you made some unusual decisions in the electrical system. None > of that stuff is new, electric Bob's advice is pretty sound. I think that > the "master" solenoid is often called the "battery" master for a reason - > it > only isolates the battery. If you want to have another battery, have > another battery master that truly isolates that battery. In your system, > if > either battery becomes a dead short - you have just taken out your > essential > buss with no way to recover in flight! All your buses (essential or not) > should be on the other side of the 'master' solenoids. If you want to > be > able to isolate the alternator, that is a separate system. > (crow-bar/solenoid/field switch/fuse link/breaker/whatever). I have come > to > the opinion that sudden over-voltage that frys your avionics is > exceedingly > unlikely. I have decided to only "isolate" my alternator with a fusible > link. - nice and simple that way. The alternator also connects to the > buss > side of the battery master solenoids. To make one of the buses > 'essential' > provide an alternate path around any perceived possible points of failure. > Batteries fail. I have seen it in cars, I'm sure you have too. Sure, > it's > mostly the older type, but a good solid short across a SLA could fail it > as > well. >> >> >> >> I also find it unusual that your voltmeter is not simply reading the > main buss voltage - no fancy switch. That way, you know what you are > getting, if you know what I mean. If you want to see how one or another > power source is doing, isolate the other sources from the master buss. > Lastly, what about you ammeter? Does it not measure current directly from > either the battery or the alternator? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure that a diode is the solution you are looking for. I >> think > what you really need is to re-do the big wires in your system altogether. > If you have settled on a one-battery system, get rid of all that extra > weight and do it according to the book. From what I know, you would use a > diode to 1) re-route field decay spikes back to the battery, or 2) provide > alternate path from a battery to an essential (always hot) buss. (i.e. If > you wanted to use a diodes, your essential buss would be connected to the > other side of the master contactors via diodes, and you would use a diode > from each battery to the essential buss.) So at a minimum you would want > 2 > diodes, one from the alternator and another from your single battery to > the > essential buss. >> >> >> >> I know you are a WAY better gEEk than me (i cant even spell AC). So I > suspect that you already know what I am saying and you just need a kick in > the arse to bite the bullet and re-do the system. >> >> >> >> Highest regards as always, >> >> >> >> -- >> David Leonard >> >> Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY >> http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net >> http://RotaryRoster.net >> >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:47 AM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Jim Maher was kind enough to convert the large DXF files of my > electrical >> system to JPG so perhaps more of you can examine it. Recall I have > removed >> the 2nd battery stuff - so ignore that on the diagrams. Also the > diagram >> does not show any of the detailed EC2/injector/ignition wiring - follow >> Tracy's recommendations on that. >> >> As you will note there is no "isolation" diode between alternator and >> battery and also that the battery voltage holds the master relay >> closed. >> That is another change I must make. I must have decided (10+ years >> ago) >> that the battery would never fail - only the alternator. Clearly >> (now), >> without battery voltage (in my design) to hold the master relay closed > - >> when the battery voltage fall to around 6-7 volts (in my case) the >> relay >> opens and all that good electrical power being produced by the >> perfectly >> good alternator - can not reach any part of the electrical system. > Clearly >> NOT good as I could have continued to fly perfectly well with just the >> alternator juice. >> >> Your design is not going to be any better than the accuracy of your >> assumptions. Clearly some of my assumptions make 10 years ago > definitely >> need revising. >> >> Ed >> >> >> The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link > attachments: >> >> DIAG_3B.jpg >> DIAG_2B.jpg >> DIAG_1B.jpg >> >> >> Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent >> sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your > e-mail >> security settings to determine how attachments are handled. >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature >> database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com