X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from poplet2.per.eftel.com ([203.24.100.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.14) with ESMTP id 3673294 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:40:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=203.24.100.45; envelope-from=lendich@aanet.com.au Received: from sv1-1.aanet.com.au (sv1-1.per.aanet.com.au [203.24.100.68]) by poplet2.per.eftel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21693173959 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 05:40:11 +0800 (WST) Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (203.171.92.134.static.rev.aanet.com.au [203.171.92.134]) by sv1-1.aanet.com.au (Postfix) with SMTP id F238B115274C for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 05:39:39 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <88549936FF82496291DFC73C59DDAB23@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 07:39:40 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9E679.F39FB090" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9E679.F39FB090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed,=20 Where do I find info on Bob K and the electronics mentioned? George (down under) Thanks, Bill =20 Well, no doubt pot-shots will be taken by some, but for the most part, = folks are appreciative to have the facts (as best I know them) as it = could possibly happen to them - or some variation. Back when I first = got started (1992), I really did not know Bob K and his deserved = reputation. In fact, because of his view about fuses vs Circuit = breakers - which I disagreed with him about at least for crucial systems = - may have influence my assessment of his excellent wiring diagrams. =20 You are correct about the alternator; I was somewhat surprised when I = discovered that once my alternator (auto) starts producing voltage, = pulling the field coil circuit breaker does not shut down the = alternator. So your suggestion to use a modified one makes good sense. =20 I always say you "..Live and learn - provided you live!.." I am = always prepared to learn from my mistakes. So far I haven't committed = the same one twice. =20 In any case, if my "full disclosure" reporting precludes even one = person from experiencing such excitement and leaves me with my "glider = time" record intact - that is payback enough {:>). =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 2:04 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 =20 Hi David, =20 You ever hear that old saying ".it seemed like a good idea at the = time." ? {:>) I agree that Bob's stuff is a good place to start. I = also realized exactly what you point out. While I could isolate my = battery from a failed (or good for that matter {:>)) alternator - with = my design, I could do nothing to isolate my essential bus from a bad = battery. The only reason I can give you (10+ years later) is that I = apparently viewed the alternator as the likely cause of a problem, since = I swap my batteries out every two years. But, clearly a new battery = short - an open circuit would not likely pose a real problem - an no = essential bus power. =20 Along those same lines of thinking, is probably why I had the battery = voltage holding the master relay closed. =20 =20 Clearly pilot played major role in this incident from one 10 year = point to the next 10 year point. =20 =20 Regarding the "fancy" voltmeter switch, at the time since I had two = batteries and an alternator, it seemed like a good idea to be able to = know the state of the three power devices. Having it just to the main = circuit did not seem to provide any information on the voltage state of = each battery. I like, it did not case the problem, so I'll leave it in = there. No amp meter. =20 I agree there is some rewiring in the very near future. I do find it = sort of Ironic that the very thing I put in to permit me to have = sufficient time (battery time) to get to an airfield - showed that it = could do just that {:>). The two year old 17AH battery showed it could = easily provide 30 minutes of quality voltage. It did not start to get = really nasty until approx 50 minutes after launch (with two EFI and = boost pumps running - I turn one EFI and boost pump off at cruise = altitude). =20 Past 50 minutes, things were clearly going to Hades in a hand basket, = my EFISM showed the EC2 was still sending the correct pulse duration to = injectors (based on my fuel flow reading), however, there was simply not = enough voltage/power to pull the injectors completely open or for long = enough. All in all I was pleased how long things did stay functional. = Based on the measured voltage later on the ground (where it might have a = chance to recovery some) the battery was reading six volts. So things = probably continue to work/more or less down to around 7-8 volts.=20 =20 =20 Some good suggestions David. One of the reasons for providing these = incidents is so that folks can learn from them (self included). =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.rotaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 1:03 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's Electrical System was Incident 5119 =20 Hi Ed, =20 Great job handling the emergency! Very nice write up. I do have to = admit that you made some unusual decisions in the electrical system. = None of that stuff is new, electric Bob's advice is pretty sound. I = think that the "master" solenoid is often called the "battery" master = for a reason - it only isolates the battery. If you want to have = another battery, have another battery master that truly isolates that = battery. In your system, if either battery becomes a dead short - you = have just taken out your essential buss with no way to recover in = flight! All your buses (essential or not) should be on the other side = of the 'master' solenoids. If you want to be able to isolate the = alternator, that is a separate system. (crow-bar/solenoid/field = switch/fuse link/breaker/whatever). I have come to the opinion that = sudden over-voltage that frys your avionics is exceedingly unlikely. I = have decided to only "isolate" my alternator with a fusible link. - nice = and simple that way. The alternator also connects to the buss side of = the battery master solenoids. To make one of the buses 'essential' = provide an alternate path around any perceived possible points of = failure. Batteries fail. I have seen it in cars, I'm sure you have too. = Sure, it's mostly the older type, but a good solid short across a SLA = could fail it as well. =20 I also find it unusual that your voltmeter is not simply reading the = main buss voltage - no fancy switch. That way, you know what you are = getting, if you know what I mean. If you want to see how one or another = power source is doing, isolate the other sources from the master buss. = Lastly, what about you ammeter? Does it not measure current directly = from either the battery or the alternator? =20 =20 I'm not sure that a diode is the solution you are looking for. I = think what you really need is to re-do the big wires in your system = altogether. If you have settled on a one-battery system, get rid of all = that extra weight and do it according to the book. From what I know, = you would use a diode to 1) re-route field decay spikes back to the = battery, or 2) provide alternate path from a battery to an essential = (always hot) buss. (i.e. If you wanted to use a diodes, your essential = buss would be connected to the other side of the master contactors via = diodes, and you would use a diode from each battery to the essential = buss.) So at a minimum you would want 2 diodes, one from the alternator = and another from your single battery to the essential buss. =20 I know you are a WAY better gEEk than me (i cant even spell AC). So I = suspect that you already know what I am saying and you just need a kick = in the arse to bite the bullet and re-do the system. =20 =20 Highest regards as always, =20 --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:47 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Jim Maher was kind enough to convert the large DXF files of my = electrical system to JPG so perhaps more of you can examine it. Recall I have = removed the 2nd battery stuff - so ignore that on the diagrams. Also the = diagram does not show any of the detailed EC2/injector/ignition wiring - = follow Tracy's recommendations on that. As you will note there is no "isolation" diode between alternator and battery and also that the battery voltage holds the master relay = closed. That is another change I must make. I must have decided (10+ years = ago) that the battery would never fail - only the alternator. Clearly = (now), without battery voltage (in my design) to hold the master relay = closed - when the battery voltage fall to around 6-7 volts (in my case) the = relay opens and all that good electrical power being produced by the = perfectly good alternator - can not reach any part of the electrical system. = Clearly NOT good as I could have continued to fly perfectly well with just the alternator juice. Your design is not going to be any better than the accuracy of your assumptions. Clearly some of my assumptions make 10 years ago = definitely need revising. Ed The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link = attachments: DIAG_3B.jpg DIAG_2B.jpg DIAG_1B.jpg Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your = e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9E679.F39FB090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Ed,
Where do I find info on Bob K and the = electronics=20 mentioned?
George (down under)

Thanks,=20 Bill

 

Well, no = doubt=20 pot-shots will be taken by some, but for the most part, folks are = appreciative=20 to have the facts (as best I know them) as it could possibly happen to = them =96=20 or some variation.  Back when I first got started (1992), I = really did=20 not know Bob K and his = deserved=20 reputation.  In fact, because of his view about fuses vs Circuit = breakers=20 =96 which I disagreed with him about at least for crucial systems - = may have=20 influence my assessment of his excellent wiring=20 diagrams.

 

You are = correct about=20 the alternator; I was somewhat surprised when I discovered that once = my=20 alternator (auto) starts producing voltage, pulling the field coil = circuit=20 breaker does not shut down the alternator.  So your suggestion to = use a=20 modified one makes good sense.

 

I always = say you=20 =93..Live and learn =96 provided you live!..=94  I am always = prepared to learn=20 from my mistakes.  So far I haven=92t committed the same one=20 twice.

 

In any = case, if my=20 =93full disclosure=94 reporting precludes even one person from = experiencing such=20 excitement and leaves me with my =93glider time=94 record intact =96 = that is payback=20 enough {:>).

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 = 2:04=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's = Electrical=20 System was Incident 5119

 

Hi=20 David,

 

You ever = hear that=20 old saying =93=85it seemed like a good idea at the time=85=94 ? = {:>)   I=20 agree that Bob=92s stuff is a good place to start.  I also = realized exactly=20 what you point out.  While I could isolate my battery from a = failed (or=20 good for that matter {:>)) alternator =96 with my design, I could = do nothing=20 to isolate my essential bus from a bad battery.  The only reason = I can=20 give you (10+ years later) is that I apparently viewed the alternator = as the=20 likely cause of a problem, since I swap my batteries out every two = years.=20  But, clearly a new battery short =96 an open circuit would not = likely pose=20 a real problem =96 an no essential bus = power.

 

Along those = same=20 lines of thinking, is probably why I had the battery voltage holding = the=20 master relay closed. 

 

Clearly = pilot played=20 major role in this incident from one 10 year point to the next 10 year = point.

 

 

Regarding = the =93fancy=94=20 voltmeter switch, at the time since I had two batteries and an = alternator, it=20 seemed like a good idea to be able to know the state of the three = power=20 devices.  Having it just to the main circuit did not seem to = provide any=20 information on the voltage state of each battery.  I like, it did = not=20 case the problem, so I=92ll leave it in there.  No amp=20 meter.

 

I agree = there is some=20 rewiring in the very near future.  I do find it sort of Ironic = that the=20 very thing I put in to permit me to have sufficient time (battery = time) to get=20 to an airfield =96 showed that it could do just that {:>). =  The two year=20 old 17AH battery showed it could easily provide 30 minutes of quality=20 voltage.  It did not start to get really nasty until approx 50 = minutes=20 after launch (with two EFI and boost pumps running =96 I turn one EFI = and boost=20 pump off at cruise altitude).

 

 Past = 50=20 minutes, things were clearly going to Hades in a hand basket, my EFISM = showed=20 the EC2 was still sending the correct pulse duration to injectors = (based on my=20 fuel flow reading), however, there was simply not enough voltage/power = to pull=20 the  injectors completely open or for long enough.  All in = all I was=20 pleased how long things did stay functional.  Based on the = measured=20 voltage later on the ground (where it might have a chance to recovery = some)=20 the battery was reading six volts.  So things probably continue = to=20 work/more or less down to around 7-8 volts. =

 

 

Some good = suggestions=20 David.  One of the reasons for providing these incidents is so = that folks=20 can learn from them (self included).

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.r= otaryaviation.com/Rotorhead%20Truth.htm

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 = 1:03=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ed's = Electrical=20 System was Incident 5119

 

Hi Ed,

 

Great job handling the emergency!  Very = nice=20 write up.   I do have to admit that you made some unusual = decisions=20 in the electrical system.  None of that stuff is new, electric = Bob's=20 advice is pretty sound.  I think that the "master" solenoid is = often=20 called the "battery" master for a reason - it only isolates the = battery. =20 If you want to have another battery, have another battery master that = truly=20 isolates that battery.  In your system, if either battery becomes = a dead=20 short - you have just taken out your essential buss with no way to = recover in=20 flight!  All your buses (essential or not) should be on the = other=20 side of the 'master' solenoids.    If you want to = be able=20 to isolate the alternator, that is a separate system. = (crow-bar/solenoid/field=20 switch/fuse link/breaker/whatever).  I have come to the opinion = that=20 sudden over-voltage that frys your avionics is exceedingly = unlikely.  I=20 have decided to only "isolate" my alternator with a fusible link. = - nice=20 and simple that way.  The alternator also connects to the buss = side of=20 the battery master solenoids.  To make one of the = buses 'essential'=20 provide an alternate path around any perceived possible points of = failure.=20 Batteries fail.  I have seen it in cars, I'm sure you have = too. =20 Sure, it's mostly the older type, but a good solid short across a = SLA could fail it as=20 well.

 

I also find it unusual that your voltmeter = is not=20 simply reading the main buss voltage - no fancy switch.  That = way, you=20 know what you are getting, if you know what I mean.  If you want = to=20 see how one or another power source is doing, isolate the = other=20 sources from the master buss.    Lastly, what = about you=20 ammeter?  Does it not measure current directly from either = the=20 battery or the = alternator?  

 

I'm not sure that a diode is the solution = you are=20 looking for.   I think what you really need is to re-do the = big=20 wires in your system altogether.  If you have settled on a = one-battery=20 system, get rid of all that extra weight and do it according to the=20 book.  From what I know, you would use a diode to 1) re-route = field decay=20 spikes back to the battery, or 2) provide alternate path from a = battery=20 to an essential (always hot) buss.  (i.e. If you wanted to = use a=20 diodes, your essential buss would be connected to the other side of = the master=20 contactors via diodes, and you would use a diode from each battery to = the=20 essential buss.)  So at a minimum you would want 2 diodes, one = from the=20 alternator and another from your single battery to the essential=20 buss.

 

I know you are a WAY better gEEk than me (i = cant even=20 spell AC).  So I suspect that you already know what I am saying = and you=20 just need a kick in the arse to bite the bullet and re-do the = system. =20

 

Highest regards as=20 always,

 

--
David = Leonard

Turbo Rotary=20 RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net

<= /DIV>

On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:47 AM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>=20 wrote:



Jim Maher was kind = enough to=20 convert the large DXF files of my electrical
system to JPG so = perhaps more=20 of you can examine it.  Recall I have removed
the 2nd battery = stuff -=20 so ignore that on the diagrams.  Also the diagram
does not = show any of=20 the detailed EC2/injector/ignition wiring - follow
Tracy's = recommendations=20 on that.

As you will note there is no "isolation" diode between = alternator and
battery and also that the battery voltage holds the = master=20 relay closed.
That is another change I must make.  I must have = decided=20 (10+ years ago)
that the battery would never fail - only the = alternator.=20  Clearly (now),
without battery voltage (in my design) to hold = the=20 master relay  closed -
when the battery voltage fall to around = 6-7=20 volts (in my case) the relay
opens and all that good electrical = power being=20 produced by the perfectly
good alternator - can not reach any part = of the=20 electrical system.  Clearly
NOT good as I could have continued = to fly=20 perfectly well with just the
alternator juice.

Your design = is not=20 going to be any better than the accuracy of your
assumptions. =  Clearly=20 some of my assumptions make 10 years ago definitely
need=20 revising.

Ed


The message is ready to be sent with = the=20 following file or link=20 = attachments:

DIAG_3B.jpg
DIAG_2B.jpg
DIAG_1B.jpg


= Note:=20 To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may = prevent
sending or=20 receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your=20 e-mail
security settings to determine how attachments are=20 handled.


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, = version=20 of virus signature
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The = message=20 was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.



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