X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3579570 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:26:02 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.52; envelope-from=keltro@att.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; q=dns/txt; d=att.net; s=dkim01; i=keltro@att.net; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1239650762; h=Content-Type: MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=0skPeV LGaX6/NIpNmE8vpby81CNreNFSrvKI4YbVk6c=; b=e8mnKtvO+O7iL3Qpd0K9lIUez EYIzp+l8Ab9RMOlucHxqGpMHl88i0nf7zTjWk3BVo+jhtvcbN2xu4xN+UmlaQ== Received: from fwebmail06.isp.att.net ([204.127.218.106]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20090413192526H02008i6nue>; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:25:26 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.218.106] Received: from [72.209.171.243] by fwebmail06.isp.att.net; Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:25:25 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: Rotary Engines Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:25:25 +0000 Message-Id: <041320091925.7942.49E391A50002BE4200001F0622230682329B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 2 2009) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_7942_1239650725_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_7942_1239650725_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, Same for me ...........Fun read............My experiences flying as a cr= ew member for the=20 Navy were incident-less................Same for my civilian flying except f= or check ride for my seaplane rating in a Lake Amphibian when the nose gear would not extend = after the ride was complete...........No problem , landed back in the lake and called= the mechanic who came out and fixed a known problem with this a/c.........Then took off = and returned to the airport without incident............FAA check pilot did not hold it = against me and did issue the rating !!.........Interesting though were my many flights in para= chute jump planes (single and multi-engine both recip and turbine) many of which obviously su= ffered from somewhat iffy maintenance and jumpers just prayed they would climb high eno= ugh to=20 get out of alive............But never had a problem with any of these a/c != !............... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from Tracy Crook = : --------------=20 A Fun read David, Thanks! Tracy (water rising) On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:37 AM, David Leonard wrote: Dave, I think you have a higher tolerance for inflight faults than the average p= ilot. :-) Not exactly sure why you say that, but I could guess. Below is the other s= ide of the story... why I maybe am a little less phased by maintiance issue= s.... I disagree with your comment that these are non-incidents. A non-incident = is when you fly and nothing breaks. I flew an RV-6A with a 160 Lyc for seve= ral hundred hours over 4 years, incident free. The stuff you noted below ma= y not have required a precautionary landing or resulted in a forced landing= , but they were failures none the less. Then again, my last 200 hrs of rotary flying have been essentially issue fr= ee (except for one turbo failure - flip switch to fly home from Texas). It= only took about 170 hrs to sort out all those problems. How many hours do= you think it took the piston engine guys to figure out their issues? Personally, I now have about 300 hrs in certified aircraft, and 360 hrs in = my RV-6. You have seen the list of issues in my RV, here is the list of is= sues with certified aircraft: C140 throttle cable stuck at full throttle - required turning off the Mags = and landing deadstick on an airport. (mixture cable adjustment insufficient= to stop engine) C140 dead battery at isolated airport due to bad maintenance from certified= mechanic. C140 required early engine rebuild costing thousands of dollars. C140 engine rebuild continued to leak oil all over windscreen right after r= ebuild, required repeated trips to repair shop to fix. C140 lost spinner in flight - could have been catastrophic. C150 Severe Carb Ice causing sudden engine stoppage - restarted at only 100= 0' AGL C152 Nearly deadstick landing at airport due to fuel starvation due to lack= of reliable fuel consumption/measuring devices. C152 Severe plug fouling causing cancellation of flight during run up. C177 Cancellation of long planned trip due to complete electrical failure o= n pre-flight. Piper Dakota - unable to start in cold weather. Cost a whole day. C182RG Cancellation of another long planned trip due to quirky electrical i= ssues that made me uneasy. Piper Apache - Failure of prop governor in left engine requiring a single e= ngine landing Piper Apache - Bilateral engine failure due to carb ice - quickly resolved.= (Carb ice happens easily in the tropics - not just in landing phase) TH-57A - fuel control unit mis metering shortly after start up - flight mov= ed to different aircraft. Those were as the pilot, I also had these failures as a pax (not counted in= the 300 hrs certified time): P3C-Orion - Engine oil failure causing the dreaded 3-engine landing. H-46 - chip light warning causing emergency landing in mountainous terrain. F/A-18 - computer said something was wrong during pre-flight. Flight cance= led. Happened about 5 times. F/A-18 Computer said something was wrong in flight - RTB. Happened once. F/A-18 Cannon jammed and we couldn't shoot the burned out shell of a tank..= . damn!=20 C-5 Flight Canceled - undefined maintenance issue. C-141 - Spent 6 miserable days in Atsuki trying to board. Every morning ch= eck out of BOQ, carry all belongings (for a 6-month deployment) to terminal= , wait in terminal for several hours for flight to be officially cancelled = due to 'maintiance issues', carry all belongings back to BOQ and get a diff= erent room. Repeat... C-17 FINALLY going to get off this rock, meet girlfriend, get laid... Cance= led for undisclosed maintenance issues. Still paid for girlfriends airfare= to Bahrain - and she broke up with me after traveling to Bahrain and back = for no reason. Surprisingly, all my time in jump planes is without incident. Go figure. In both cases (rotary and non-rotary), all the failures are associated with= peripheral systems and not the structural components of the engine. But i= f I were to pick the better ENGINE, it would unquestionably and without a d= oubt be the rotary. The NTSB records are FILLED with crankshaft failures, = jug failures, exhaust valve failures, cam rod and piston failures, crashes = due to carb ice and crashes due to vapor lock. Now that I am through those first couple hundred hours, give me the rotary = any day. I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe that my RV-6 is safer tha= n any Cessna or piper I could rent from a club or FBO. I now believe that = it is nearly as safe as an RV-6 with a lyc installation. In another 500 hr= s, I think it will be safer and more reliable. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David Leonard=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:32 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary Engines Well, now you are getting into non-incidents. That list is inexhaustible. On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, John Slade wro= te: Here's a few for the list, Mark, 1. Stock turbo bearings collapsed & took out apex seal. Flew home at reduce= d power. I have burned out 2 turbos. The first caused precautionary/urgent landing = at an airport pending shutting off fuel flow to the turbo. The second, I f= lipped a turbo oil shut off switch and flew 1000NM to get home. 2. Fuel filer (sinstered bronze) looked clean but was restricting fuel flow= . Flew home on other tank. Had a fuel pump die in flight, switched to the other and kept flying. 3. Bad / intermittent contact on ignition timing sensor made engine run rou= gh. Landed normally and repaired. I had a bad injector enable switch causing rough running during some phase = one flying (after major change)... landed normally 4. Turbo hose blew off on take-off. Returned to land at reduced power. John=20 Been there, done that. Also: Forgot to re-connect fuel return line in engine bay after doing some work. = dumped a couple gallons of fuel onto the running engine until I smelled ga= s and shut down the engine.. (never left the parking space - but it could h= ave been really bad. Cracked alternator mount bracket found on pre-flight during phase one testi= ng. Would have lost cooling and alternator if it happened now. PSRU sun gear pin broke from a backfire during run-up. Was able to taxi ba= ck but would not have been able to fly. This is good - broke a coolant line in flight and smelled coolant... lande= d at nearby airport and taxied up to restaurant with steam spewing out of t= he cowl. Me and my buddy calmly walked into the restaurant and had breakfa= st. Afterward, we borrowed some tools and fixed the coolant line. Went ba= ck into the restaurant to ask for 2 pitchers of water to put in our plane. = Continued ski trip to Mammoth. The end. --=20 David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_7942_1239650725_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_7942_1239650725_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_7942_1239650725_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
  Dave,
   Same for me ...........Fun read............My experiences= flying as a crew member for the
Navy were incident-less................Same for my civilian flying exc= ept for check ride for
my seaplane rating in a Lake Amphibian when the nose gear would not ex= tend after the
ride was complete...........No problem , landed back in the lake and c= alled the mechanic
who came out and fixed a known problem with this a/c.........Then took= off and returned
to the airport without incident............FAA check pilot did not hol= d it against me and did
issue the rating !!.........Interesting though were my many flights in= parachute jump planes
(single and multi-engine both recip and turbine) many of which ob= viously suffered from
somewhat iffy maintenance and jumpers just prayed they would climb hig= h enough to
get out of alive............But never had a problem with any of these = a/c !!...............
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d
-------------- Original message from Tracy Crook <tracy@r= otaryaviation.com>: --------------

A Fun read David,
  T= hanks!

Tracy  (water rising)

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 1:37 AM, David Leonard <wdleonard@gmail.com= > wrote:


Dave,
 
 I think you have a higher tolerance = for inflight faults than the average pilot. :-)
 
Not exactly sure why you say that, but I could guess.  Below is t= he other side of the story... why I maybe am a little less phased by mainti= ance issues....
 
 I disagree with your comment that th= ese are non-incidents. A non-incident is when you fly and nothing breaks. I= flew an RV-6A with a 160 Lyc for several hundred hours over 4 years, incid= ent free. The stuff you noted below may not have required a precautionary l= anding or resulted in a forced landing, but they were failures none the les= s.
 
Then again, my last 200 hrs of rotary flying have been essentially iss= ue free (except for one turbo failure - flip switch to fly home from Texas)= .  It only took about 170 hrs to sort out all those problems.  Ho= w many hours do you think it took the piston engine guys to figure out thei= r issues?
 
Personally, I now have about 300 hrs in certified aircraft, and 360 hr= s in my RV-6.  You have seen the list of issues in my RV, here is the = list of issues with certified aircraft:
C140 throttle cable stuck at full throttle - required turning off the = Mags and landing deadstick on an airport. (mixture cable adjustment in= sufficient to stop engine)
C140 dead battery at isolated airport due to bad maintenance from cert= ified mechanic.
C140 required early engine rebuild costing thousands of dollars.
C140 engine rebuild continued to leak oil all over windscreen right af= ter rebuild, required repeated trips to repair shop to fix.
C140 lost spinner in flight - could have been catastrophic.
C150 Severe Carb Ice causing sudden engine stoppage - restarted a= t only 1000' AGL
C152 Nearly deadstick landing at airport due to fuel starvation due to= lack of reliable fuel consumption/measuring devices.
C152  Severe plug fouling causing cancellation of flight during r= un up.
C177 Cancellation of long planned trip due to complete electrical= failure on pre-flight.
Piper Dakota - unable to start in cold weather.  Cost a whole day= .
C182RG Cancellation of another long planned trip due to quirky el= ectrical issues that made me uneasy.
Piper Apache - Failure of prop governor in left engine requiring a sin= gle engine landing
Piper Apache - Bilateral engine failure due to carb ice - quickly reso= lved. (Carb ice happens easily in the tropics - not just in landing phase)<= /DIV>
TH-57A - fuel control unit mis metering shortly after start up - = flight moved to different aircraft.
 
Those were as the pilot, I also had these failures as a pax (not count= ed in the 300 hrs certified time):
P3C-Orion - Engine oil failure causing the dreaded 3-engine landi= ng.
H-46 - chip light warning causing emergency landing in mountainous ter= rain.
F/A-18 - computer said something was wrong during pre-flight.  Fl= ight canceled.  Happened about 5 times.
F/A-18 Computer said something was wrong in flight - RTB.  Happen= ed once.
F/A-18 Cannon jammed and we couldn't shoot the burned out shell of a t= ank... damn! 
C-5 Flight Canceled - undefined maintenance issue.
C-141 - Spent 6 miserable days in Atsuki trying to board.  E= very morning check out of BOQ, carry all belongings (for a 6-month dep= loyment) to terminal, wait in terminal for several hours for flig= ht to be officially cancelled due to 'maintiance issues', carry all belongi= ngs back to BOQ and get a different room. Repeat...
C-17 FINALLY going to get off this rock, meet girlfriend, get laid... = Canceled for undisclosed maintenance issues.  Still paid for girlfrien= ds airfare to Bahrain - and she broke up with me after traveling to Bahrain= and back for no reason.
 
Surprisingly, all my time in jump planes is without incident.  Go= figure.
 
In both cases (rotary and non-rotary), all the failures are associated= with peripheral systems and not the structural components of the engine.&n= bsp; But if I were to pick the better ENGINE, it would unquestionably and w= ithout a doubt be the rotary.  The NTSB records are FILLED with c= rankshaft failures, jug failures, exhaust valve failures, cam rod and pisto= n failures, crashes due to carb ice and crashes due to vapor lock= .
 
Now that I am through those first couple hundred hours, give me the ro= tary any day.  I truly, in my heart of hearts, believe that my RV-6 is= safer than any Cessna or piper I could rent from a club or FBO.  I no= w believe that it is nearly as safe as an RV-6 with a lyc installation.&nbs= p; In another 500 hrs, I think it will be safer and more reliable.
 
--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net<= BR>http://RotaryRoster= .net
 
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
David Leonard
<= /DIV>
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 6:32 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Gary Casey was [FlyRotary] Re: Rotary En= gines

Well, now you are getting into non-incidents.  That list is inexh= austible.

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, John Slade <= jslade@canardaviation.com> wrote:
Here's a few for the l= ist, Mark,
1. Stock turbo bearings collapsed & took out apex seal. F= lew home at reduced power.
 
I have burned out 2 turbos.  The first caused precautionary/urgen= t landing at an airport pending shutting off fuel flow to the turbo.  = The second, I flipped a turbo oil shut off switch and flew 1000NM to get ho= me.
 

2. Fu= el filer (sinstered bronze) looked clean but was restricting fuel flow. Fle= w home on other tank.
 
Had a fuel pump die in flight, switched to the other and kept flying.<= /DIV>

3. Ba= d / intermittent contact on ignition timing sensor made engine run rough. L= anded normally and repaired.
 
I had a bad injector enable switch causing rough running during some p= hase one flying (after major change)...  landed normally

4. Tu= rbo hose blew off on take-off. Returned to land at reduced power.
John=20
 
 
Been there, done that.
 
Also:
Forgot to re-connect fuel return line in engine bay after doing some w= ork.  dumped a couple gallons of fuel onto the running engine until I = smelled gas and shut down the engine.. (never left the parking space - but = it could have been really bad.
Cracked alternator mount bracket found on pre-flight during phase one = testing.  Would have lost cooling and alternator if it happened now.
PSRU sun gear pin broke from a backfire during run-up.  Was able = to taxi back but would not have been able to fly.
 
This is good - broke a coolant line in flight and smelled coola= nt...  landed at nearby airport and taxied up to restaurant with steam= spewing out of the cowl.  Me and my buddy calmly walked into the rest= aurant and had breakfast.  Afterward, we borrowed some tools and fixed= the coolant line.  Went back into the restaurant to ask for 2 pitcher= s of water to put in our plane.  Continued ski trip to Mammoth.  = The end.




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