X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3526254 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:04:44 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo01.cox.net ([70.169.32.71]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090304040406.WHWP15318.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2009 23:04:06 -0500 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo01.cox.net with bizsmtp id Ns441b00K1CvZmk03s46yA; Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:04:06 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=RgAroyKy78wA:10 a=U1ZaYnf293oA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=kviXuzpPAAAA:8 a=pedpZTtsAAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=rrXqZ9FqdhfNnebE0CEA:9 a=hj4rSqvVW3DpGGBKVUEA:7 a=TBERgjf_Cew54dsug16wHRcmPIAA:4 a=v47ZLdibA2YA:10 a=-K1qMbr-rfkA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=AxFoTfru8ULh5EnV:21 a=KbTejdju_qcb-pFl:21 a=rS5mL1FhsPn-UHHZNaEA:9 a=GSj0s4G7hMHv0Aq57ekA:7 a=t2wHpJ-q1_VZz3ONxYW8T_kjjWAA:4 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 a=l-j-9vhVDODVX7DR:21 a=Gmghjyxf6dCwsyj-:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <006a01c99c7e$423fce60$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 20:04:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0067_01C99C3B.33D4FE10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C99C3B.33D4FE10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, Again not a fair comparison and not exclusive territory of the rotary. = If your friend was flying a Cont/Lyc powered Velocity like yours and his = alternator crapped he could go down to the local parts store and buy the = same alternator/regulator you bought. I'll grant you the overhaul cost and I'm with you there. But then he = bought a certified airplane and has to accept the baggage that comes = with it. Of course installing a new engine will increase the resale = value of his Bonanza quite a bit which makes the price a little less = painful. By the way, where did you get the over-voltage circuit? I'd like to = incorporate that myself - seems like cheap insurance. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:18 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane Mark; Good point on the fuel cost. Here's another that is fresh in my mind. = I noticed a few weeks that the voltage was fluctuating during flight, = ranging about 1 =BD volts, and hitting a high over 15.5 volts. I use = the internal regulator, but modified to use external field supply with a = 'crowbar' circuit for over-voltage protection. I decided to replace the = regulator. Took the alternator off, opened it up, got a replacement = regulator at a local rebuild shop for $38; back together on the plane, = working fine. Meanwhile my friends Bonanza is in for an annual. They = decided the alternator wasn't putting out what it should - replacement = cost: over $700. His Continental (520 I think) is past the 1750 recommended TBO. So he = is debating between factory reman at about $35,000, or new at about = $45,000. Yeah; I love my rotary 20B. Al G -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:24 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane William, I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here. Regardinging fuel burn, I'm not = overly concerned with bsfc, although its not that bad if you're running = EFI. What we're really interested in is cost per mile. I have burned = nothing but mogas in my 3-rotor Lancair. The last time I purchased = fuel, it was $1.65/gallon. My N/A 3-rotor burns between 10 and 11 gph = at around 20" MAP. So, it will cost me somewhere around $16.50 - = $18.15/hr to fly. Other Lancair ES's are running IO-540's, or some = derivative of the "540". From what I hear, they burn between 12 - 15 = gph. With the cost of 100LL running around $4/gallon, that would cost = between $48 - $60/hr in fuel. So, figuring cost per mile, I don't see = how a Lycoming could come close to matching a rotary. The fuel savings = alone will more than cover the cost of an overhaul. =20 And hope the Lycoming doesn't burn a valve, or any number of other = common ailments which can take a serious bite out of your checkbook. = Most of the things that break on a piston engine aren't even present on = the rotary. If it ain't there, it can't break. So, would I use a rotary if I were to do it over, yes, absolutely! =20 Mark S. On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:31 PM, William Wilson = wrote: I have not found an accomodating A&P but I attribute that to the fact = that I have not looked yet. Given that I live in Seattle I am pretty = sure I can find one. Seattle is crawling (fluttering?) with homebuilt = planes. If anyone has suggestions, I am listening, but I had not = started searching yet. Plan is not to take apart a perfectly good flying plane to change the = engine, but ideally to get one with a rotary in it already, or replace = only at overhaul time. In each case I save as much on the cheaper = engine as I would lose on resale value... and if the plane has the = rotary in it to start with, I get to pay the lower price up front too, = which makes price difference just plain better. For efficiency what I said was that homebuilt planes are more = efficient than factory built, not that rotary are more efficient than = Lycoming, though in that case it should be quite close. Bad fuel = economy of rotary engine is overstated, economy is comparatively bad at = low power & RPM but at high power it is not bad at all. As long as you = are not turbocharged, you can run much leaner than a piston engine, = making up for less efficient combustion chamber shape. Rotary BSFC in = the lab has gone as low as .375 (for renesis), and .44-.46 measured in = real world racing applications even with traditional type engine. So I = think I would not see a significant difference in fuel economy between = rotary and piston. Weight & drag of the plane it is in will matter = more. In any case all advice is welcome, even dissenting opinions ;) On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:12 PM, Mike Wills wrote: William, I highly recommend you check around to make sure you can find an = A&P who will do a condition inspection with the rotary engine installed = BEFORE you commit. Many A&Ps I've talked to dont want anything to do = with Experimentals let alone an engine that looks nothing like what they = are used to. There's simply too much potential liability (real or = perceived) to go out on a limb like that. The A&P who used to do the = condition inspection on the RV-6A I used to own (Lycoming powered) was = willing to do it because the RV structure is similar to typical spam = cans. He wont have anything to do with wet layup homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, = etc...). He doesnt even like doing annuals on Diamond aircraft with the = Rotax 912/914 and they are certified. If you buy a flying homebuilt that is Lyc or Continental powered, = before you convert it to rotary power seriously think about what you are = doing to the resale value - if you could ever sell it that is. My guess = is that you'll give up at least $10,000 in resale value, maybe much = more. No big deal if you plan on keeping it for life. I dont know where you got the idea that rotaries are more fuel = efficient. Lycosaurs/Continentals typically have BSFCs in the low .40s. = The commonly accepted number for a rotary is about .50. Some here seem = to do better, others worse. With a grand total of 2 hours on my rotary I = cant say what my experience will be but hope its close to the Lyc I used = to fly. Finally dont underestimate the effort required to make the change. = I started building my RV-4 in late 1995. The airframe was essentially = done in 2000. My first flight was last month. Granted I took longer than = many and much of the trouble came from my desire to eliminate the cowl = cheeks on an already cramped engine compartment. But thats eight years = of tinkering to get the engine installed and running to the point where = I had enough confidence in it to fly it. Not trying to discourage you, but go into this with eyes wide open. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW - Show quoted text - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Wilson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:46 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a = rotary plane This is great news. Thanks Charlie and Bob :) On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 7:34 PM, Charlie England = wrote: William Wilson wrote: I am in the market for a plane and would prefer a rotary-powered, = as I have lots of experience working with rotary engines. As a bonus, = homebuilt planes all seem to get about twice as much fuel economy as = factory built planes. So that is nice too. I know there are a few = rotary powered planes available for sale, but not too many. I have neither the time nor desire to build my own plane, so my = question is more about maintenance and inspections. I'm not an official = A&P and I don't know if I will be able to find an A&P to work on a home = built plane with a car engine in it! I am happy to do engine = maintenance, but am not entirely clear on the legality of it, since I = would not be the original builder. Similarly when it is eventually time for an engine rebuild, would = I be able to remove the engine, take it down to Atkins (who are not far = from me) and have them rebuild it, or rebuild it myself, and then = reinstall it, and find an A&P to just sign off on the work? Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it has a Lycosaurus, but = when time for overhaul comes, get rid of the Lycoming and replace it = with a rotary. Thought in this case is to get the rotary tuned, a = little broken in and running on a stand in the hangar in advance, so = that when the time comes to do the swap it can be done with a minimum of = downtime. (I know it cannot really be tuned for altitude in this way = but it is better than nothing!). But again, the fact that I would not = be the original builder makes me worry about legalities. I have heard = that this has been done so question is more about the how. I do not really understand all the law involved and hopefully = somebody here can help. Thanks! I can't speak with authority, but I can speak from experience. Experimental homebuilts can be maintained or modified by anyone. = No FAA blessings required. Annual condition inspections must be = performed by either the holder of the 'repairman's certificate' (only = available to the builder of record) or by the holder of an A&P ticket = (no IA required). Once the airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any = maintenance, repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification = requirements vary somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w = was issued, but in general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that = major mods were made, ask for a defined test area, make a log entry = detailing the return to 'phase one' testing, fly test flights for = (typically) 5 hours, then make another log entry saying that the plane = has been tested with the mods & is being returned to 'phase two' (normal = operational) status. 'Major modification' isn't clearly defined, but if you have to = ask, it's major. :-) The availability of an A&P to sign off condition inspections is = all over the map (literally). It's never been a problem for me, but in = some parts of the country people can't find an A&P who will sign off = *any* homebuilt, no matter what engine. If you have that problem, get = to know the guys who sign off the crop dusters in your area. Hope that helps.... Charlie=20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C99C3B.33D4FE10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
 
 Again not a fair comparison and = not exclusive=20 territory of the rotary. If your friend was flying a Cont/Lyc powered = Velocity=20 like yours and his alternator crapped he could go down to the local = parts store=20 and buy the same alternator/regulator you bought.
 
 I'll grant you the overhaul cost = and I'm with=20 you there. But then he bought a certified airplane and has to accept the = baggage=20 that comes with it. Of course installing a new engine will increase the = resale=20 value of his Bonanza quite a bit which makes the price a little less=20 painful.
 
 By the way, where did you get the = over-voltage circuit? I'd like to incorporate that myself - seems like = cheap=20 insurance.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 = 8:18=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Questions on=20 buying a rotary plane

Mark;

 

Good = point on the=20 fuel cost. Here=92s another that is fresh in my mind. I noticed a few = weeks that=20 the voltage was fluctuating during flight, ranging about 1 =BD volts, = and=20 hitting a high over 15.5 volts.  I use the internal regulator, = but=20 modified to use external field supply with a =91crowbar=92 circuit for = over-voltage protection. I decided to replace the regulator.  = Took the=20 alternator off, opened it up, got a replacement regulator at a local = rebuild=20 shop for $38; back together on the plane, working fine. =  Meanwhile my=20 friends Bonanza is in for an annual. They decided the alternator = wasn=92t=20 putting out what it should =96 replacement cost: over = $700.

 

His = Continental=20 (520 I think) is past the 1750 recommended TBO. So he is debating = between=20 factory reman at about $35,000, or new at about = $45,000.

 

Yeah; I = love my=20 rotary 20B.

 

Al=20 G

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 = 5:24=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: Questions on buying a rotary plane

 

William,

 

I'll throw my 2 cents worth = in=20 here.  Regardinging fuel burn, I'm not overly concerned with = bsfc,=20 although its not that bad if you're running EFI.  What we're = really=20 interested in is cost per mile.  I have burned nothing but mogas = in my=20 3-rotor Lancair.  The last time I purchased fuel, it was=20 $1.65/gallon.  My N/A 3-rotor burns between 10 and 11 = gph at=20 around 20" MAP.  So, it will cost me somewhere around $16.50 -=20 $18.15/hr to fly.  Other Lancair ES's are running IO-540's, = or some=20 derivative of the "540".  From what I hear, they burn between 12 = - 15=20 gph.  With the cost of 100LL running around $4/gallon, = that would=20 cost between $48 - $60/hr in fuel.  So, figuring cost = per mile,=20 I don't see how a Lycoming could come close to matching a=20 rotary.  The fuel savings alone will more than cover the = cost of an=20 overhaul. 

 

And hope the Lycoming = doesn't burn a=20 valve, or any number of other common ailments which can take = a=20 serious bite out of your checkbook.  Most of the things that = break=20 on a piston engine aren't even present on the rotary.  If it = ain't there,=20 it can't break.

 

So, would I use a rotary if I = were to do=20 it over, yes, absolutely!

   
Mark=20 S.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:31 = PM, William=20 Wilson <fluffysheap@gmail.com>=20 wrote:

I = have not found=20 an accomodating A&P but I attribute that to the fact that I have = not=20 looked yet.  Given that I live in Seattle I am pretty sure I can = find=20 one.  Seattle is crawling (fluttering?) with homebuilt = planes.  If=20 anyone has suggestions, I am listening, but I had not started = searching=20 yet.

Plan is not to take apart a perfectly good flying plane to = change=20 the engine, but ideally to get one with a rotary in it already, or = replace=20 only at overhaul time.  In each case I save as much on the = cheaper engine=20 as I would lose on resale value... and if the plane has the rotary in = it to=20 start with, I get to pay the lower price up front too, which makes = price=20 difference just plain better.

For efficiency what I said was = that=20 homebuilt planes are more efficient than factory built, not that = rotary are=20 more efficient than Lycoming, though in that case it should be quite=20 close.  Bad fuel economy of rotary engine is overstated, economy = is=20 comparatively bad at low power & RPM but at high power it is not = bad at=20 all.  As long as you are not turbocharged, you can run much = leaner than a=20 piston engine, making up for less efficient combustion chamber = shape. =20 Rotary BSFC in the lab has gone as low as .375 (for renesis), and = .44-.46=20 measured in real world racing applications even with traditional type=20 engine.  So I think I would not see a significant difference in = fuel=20 economy between rotary and piston.  Weight & drag of the = plane it is=20 in will matter more.

In any case all advice is welcome, even = dissenting=20 opinions ;)

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:12 = PM, Mike=20 Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:

William,

 

 I highly = recommend you=20 check around to make sure you can find an A&P who will do a = condition=20 inspection with the rotary engine installed BEFORE you commit. Many = A&Ps=20 I've talked to dont want anything to do with Experimentals let alone = an=20 engine that looks nothing like what they are used to. There's simply = too=20 much potential liability (real or perceived) to go out on a limb = like that.=20 The A&P who used to do the condition inspection on the RV-6A I = used to=20 own (Lycoming powered) was willing to do it because the RV structure = is=20 similar to typical spam cans. He wont have anything to do with wet = layup=20 homebuilts (EZs, Cozys, etc...). He doesnt even like doing annuals = on=20 Diamond aircraft with the Rotax 912/914 and they are=20 certified.

 

 If you buy a = flying=20 homebuilt that is Lyc or Continental powered, before you convert it = to=20 rotary power seriously think about what you are doing to the resale = value -=20 if you could ever sell it that is. My guess is that you'll give up = at least=20 $10,000 in resale value, maybe much more. No big deal if you plan on = keeping=20 it for life.

 

 I dont know = where you got=20 the idea that rotaries are more fuel efficient. = Lycosaurs/Continentals=20 typically have BSFCs in the low .40s. The commonly accepted number = for a=20 rotary is about .50. Some here seem to do better, others worse. With = a grand=20 total of 2 hours on my rotary I cant say what my experience will be = but hope=20 its close to the Lyc I used to fly.

 

 Finally dont = underestimate=20 the effort required to make the change. I started building my = RV-4  in=20 late 1995. The airframe was essentially done in 2000. My first = flight was=20 last month. Granted I took longer than many and much of the trouble = came=20 from my desire to eliminate the cowl cheeks on an already cramped = engine=20 compartment. But thats eight years of tinkering to get the engine = installed=20 and running to the point where I had enough confidence in it to fly=20 it.

 

 Not trying to = discourage=20 you, but go into this with eyes wide open.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW

- Show quoted text=20 -

 

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: William Wilson

To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:46 PM

Subject:=20 [Norton AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: Questions on buying a rotary=20 plane

 

This is great=20 news.  Thanks Charlie and Bob :)

On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at = 7:34 PM,=20 Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net> = wrote:

William Wilson=20 wrote:

I am in the market for a = plane and=20 would prefer a rotary-powered, as I have lots of experience = working with=20 rotary engines.  As a bonus, homebuilt planes all seem to get = about=20 twice as much fuel economy as factory built planes.  So that = is nice=20 too.  I know there are a few rotary powered planes available = for=20 sale, but not too many.

I have neither the time nor desire = to build=20 my own plane, so my question is more about maintenance and = inspections.=20  I'm not an official A&P and I don't know if I will be = able to=20 find an A&P to work on a home built plane with a car engine in = it!=20  I am happy to do engine maintenance, but am not entirely = clear on=20 the legality of it, since I would not be the original=20 builder.

Similarly when it is eventually time for an engine = rebuild, would I be able to remove the engine, take it down to = Atkins (who=20 are not far from me) and have them rebuild it, or rebuild it = myself, and=20 then reinstall it, and find an A&P to just sign off on the=20 work?

Plan B is to buy whatever plane even if it has a = Lycosaurus,=20 but when time for overhaul comes, get rid of the Lycoming and = replace it=20 with a rotary.  Thought in this case is to get the rotary = tuned, a=20 little broken in and running on a stand in the hangar in advance, = so that=20 when the time comes to do the swap it can be done with a minimum = of=20 downtime.  (I know it cannot really be tuned for altitude in = this way=20 but it is better than nothing!).  But again, the fact that I = would=20 not be the original builder makes me worry about legalities. =  I have=20 heard that this has been done so question is more about the = how.

I=20 do not really understand all the law involved and hopefully = somebody here=20 can help.  Thanks!

 

I can't speak with = authority, but I=20 can speak from experience.

Experimental homebuilts can be=20 maintained or modified by anyone. No FAA blessings required. = Annual=20 condition inspections must be performed by either the holder of = the=20 'repairman's certificate' (only available to the builder of = record) or by=20 the holder of an A&P ticket (no IA required).

Once the=20 airworthiness certificate is awarded, *anyone* can do any = maintenance,=20 repairs, modifications etc desired. The post-modification = requirements=20 vary somewhat from plane to plane depending on when the a/w was = issued,=20 but in general terms, you notify the FAA in writing that major = mods were=20 made, ask for a defined test area, make a log entry detailing the = return=20 to 'phase one' testing, fly test flights for (typically) 5 hours, = then=20 make another log entry saying that the plane has been tested with = the mods=20 & is being returned to 'phase two' (normal operational)=20 status.

'Major modification' isn't clearly defined, but if = you have=20 to ask, it's major. :-)

The availability of an A&P to = sign off=20 condition inspections is all over the map (literally). It's never = been a=20 problem for me, but in some parts of the country people can't find = an=20 A&P who will sign off  *any* homebuilt, no matter what = engine. If=20 you have that problem,  get to know the guys who sign off the = crop=20 dusters in your area.

Hope that helps....

Charlie=20

 

 

 

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