Yes, Dennis has provided some up-close
photos of the intake. It’s clear that both the primary and
secondary runners are connected together through the Variable Induction Valve
(VIV) when the VIV is open above 5750 rpm (according to the Mazda
literature). That is rather interesting because on the six port the value
is opened like around 7250 rpm – but then the “red line” on
the 4 port is only 7500 rpm in the auto application, so I guess it would need
to open before red line {:>).
Low rpm mode
It appears that IF the 4 port is using
the DIE effect at Low rpm (<5750), it would use the “end of the
tube” reflection of the FAW pulse below 5750 rpm to bounce the pulse back
to the same rotor that generated it (since the VIV is closed and prevents
cross over) – which means it would have to arrive back in less that
60 deg of rotation if it were going to aid the intake port that generated it OR
if aiding a later port closing event then some multiple of 60 – probably 2x60
= 120 deg of rotation. That would require a tube approx 72 inches long
(depending on what rpm below 5750 you assume the “low rpm” mode
peaked at) from port to “end of tube” or first large cross
sectional increase. But, on the other hand they simply may not use the
DIE effect below 5750 rpm.
High rpm mode
AT 5750 rpm the VIV opens and the
runners are then connected together and you get the pulse being generated at
one port traveling through the intake through the VIV to the second rotor in
time to assist it in retaining its charge near the closing time of the second
rotors intake port. Based on the intake port timing spec I found
for the 4 port, it looks like the primary pulse has approx 117 deg of
rotation time to get to its destination and the secondary pulse has
approx 93 deg of rotation time. This is due to the different opening and
closing times of the primary and secondary ports. Interestingly the
secondary opens later and closes sooner – I suspect to catch the
inflowing air stream at its highest velocity.
Based on this data it looks like a 36”
(port to port) would give DIE boosts at the rpm shown. The boost effect the
effect would peak at those rpm and fall off on each side of those peaks.
This is based on the port opening and closing timing specs for the 4 port
engine to arrive at the angular (Angle in the chart) rotational time required for
to travel from one port to the port on the second rotor.
|
Exhaust
Pulse/ First port Closing as target for HIGH RPM Mode
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RPM
|
RPS
|
Period
|
Rate deg/sec
|
Angle
|
Time Sec
|
Ft/sec
|
inch/sec
|
Distance
|
|
Dennis Measured Distance
|
|
|
HIGH
|
5650
|
94.16667
|
0.010619
|
33900
|
93
|
0.002743
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.2
|
|
36"
|
|
Secondary
|
RPM
|
5750
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
7100
|
118.3333
|
0.008451
|
42600
|
117
|
0.002746
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.3
|
|
36"
|
|
primary
|
If you assume it takes some time to
generate the pulse and it needs to get to the second port before it closes, I
figure 5-10 deg of rotation is required for this activity, in which case I
reduce the amount of travel time by – 10 deg giving the following results
for 93-10 = 83 and 117 – 10 = 107 degrees travel time for the pulse
|
|
|
Minus 10 deg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Exhaust
Pulse/ First port Closing as target for HIGH RPM Mode
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RPM
|
RPS
|
Period
|
Rate deg/sec
|
Angle
|
Time Sec
|
Ft/sec
|
inch/sec
|
Distance
|
|
Dennis Measured Distance
|
|
|
HIGH
|
5050
|
84.16667
|
0.011881
|
30300
|
83
|
0.002739
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.2
|
|
36"
|
|
Secondary
|
RPM
|
5750
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
6525
|
108.75
|
0.009195
|
39150
|
107
|
0.002733
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.1
|
|
36"
|
|
primary
|
The time delay could be as - 5 deg (I don’t
think much lower than that) which gives
|
|
|
minus 5 deg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RPM
|
RPS
|
Period
|
Rate deg/sec
|
Angle
|
Time Sec
|
Ft/sec
|
inch/sec
|
Distance
|
|
Dennis Measured Distance
|
|
|
HIGH
|
5350
|
89.16667
|
0.011215
|
32100
|
88
|
0.002741
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.2
|
|
36"
|
|
Secondary
|
RPM
|
5750
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
6800
|
113.3333
|
0.008824
|
40800
|
112
|
0.002745
|
1100
|
13200
|
36.2
|
|
36"
|
|
primary
|
So given that the valve opens at 5750 rpm and
therefore the DIE effect at high rpm would likely be above that rpm but below
the 7500 rpm “red line” for the auto, I believe these calculations
are in the ball park – depending on what assumptions you want to make.
At least, this is the way it appears to me. YMMV.
Ed
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://www.andersonee.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
From: Rotary motors in
aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009
2:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:
Activity......
The 4 port Renesis does
have the high speed barrel valve. Don't recall the distance from memory
but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis got.
That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon portion
of the manifold.
Tracy
On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
wrote:
Dennis,
I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of
you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the
Renesis 4 port intake to look at). However, I seem to recall that there
is a valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed
depending of some engine load variables. IF my memory is correct, this value
in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for
reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port
of the second rotor. At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the
pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range
to make the pulse travel a longer circuit – or vice versa – I have
to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve – the older N/A 13Bs
did have the value in order to change the effective length of the intake runners.
I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you
took that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner)
into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ?
Will get back to you shortly
Ed
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]
On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009
11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:
Activity......
OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective
comment on the list.
I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powered
RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.
FAW theory etc. I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it works
and make sure it
agreed with the theories. No Luck!!?
My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 in.
long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake
runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distance
from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total
intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5
inches.
It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to
travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance from
rotor
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runners.
Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg.
between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on an
old engine and agree.
The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must
have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a total of 10
deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation
time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.
I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 = 112.5 rps;
1/112.5 = 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it
takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be
8.888ms*83deg/360deg = 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from
rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound = 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 = 13.2 in/ms. So 13.2in/ms *
2.05 ms = 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is this is already 5
in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I assume their
intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of 21.3
inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 = 36 in
.
To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!!
Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic?
Going FAW crazy!!
Dennis H.
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