X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.123] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3408426 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:14:07 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.123; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090103001328.EBX73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:13:28 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: Renesis 4 port DIE effect calculations.. Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:13:30 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01C96D0E.32D8F9A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcltDGGGzrm35eO5SXWm4u1+REMmIgAHkQmA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090103001328.EBX73.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C96D0E.32D8F9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Dennis has provided some up-close photos of the intake. It's clear that both the primary and secondary runners are connected together through the Variable Induction Valve (VIV) when the VIV is open above 5750 rpm (according to the Mazda literature). That is rather interesting because on the six port the value is opened like around 7250 rpm - but then the "red line" on the 4 port is only 7500 rpm in the auto application, so I guess it would need to open before red line {:>). Low rpm mode It appears that IF the 4 port is using the DIE effect at Low rpm (<5750), it would use the "end of the tube" reflection of the FAW pulse below 5750 rpm to bounce the pulse back to the same rotor that generated it (since the VIV is closed and prevents cross over) - which means it would have to arrive back in less that 60 deg of rotation if it were going to aid the intake port that generated it OR if aiding a later port closing event then some multiple of 60 - probably 2x60 = 120 deg of rotation. That would require a tube approx 72 inches long (depending on what rpm below 5750 you assume the "low rpm" mode peaked at) from port to "end of tube" or first large cross sectional increase. But, on the other hand they simply may not use the DIE effect below 5750 rpm. High rpm mode AT 5750 rpm the VIV opens and the runners are then connected together and you get the pulse being generated at one port traveling through the intake through the VIV to the second rotor in time to assist it in retaining its charge near the closing time of the second rotors intake port. Based on the intake port timing spec I found for the 4 port, it looks like the primary pulse has approx 117 deg of rotation time to get to its destination and the secondary pulse has approx 93 deg of rotation time. This is due to the different opening and closing times of the primary and secondary ports. Interestingly the secondary opens later and closes sooner - I suspect to catch the inflowing air stream at its highest velocity. Based on this data it looks like a 36" (port to port) would give DIE boosts at the rpm shown. The boost effect the effect would peak at those rpm and fall off on each side of those peaks. This is based on the port opening and closing timing specs for the 4 port engine to arrive at the angular (Angle in the chart) rotational time required for to travel from one port to the port on the second rotor. Exhaust Pulse/ First port Closing as target for HIGH RPM Mode RPM RPS Period Rate deg/sec Angle Time Sec Ft/sec inch/sec Distance Dennis Measured Distance HIGH 5650 94.16667 0.010619 33900 93 0.002743 1100 13200 36.2 36" Secondary RPM 5750 7100 118.3333 0.008451 42600 117 0.002746 1100 13200 36.3 36" primary If you assume it takes some time to generate the pulse and it needs to get to the second port before it closes, I figure 5-10 deg of rotation is required for this activity, in which case I reduce the amount of travel time by - 10 deg giving the following results for 93-10 = 83 and 117 - 10 = 107 degrees travel time for the pulse Minus 10 deg Exhaust Pulse/ First port Closing as target for HIGH RPM Mode RPM RPS Period Rate deg/sec Angle Time Sec Ft/sec inch/sec Distance Dennis Measured Distance HIGH 5050 84.16667 0.011881 30300 83 0.002739 1100 13200 36.2 36" Secondary RPM 5750 6525 108.75 0.009195 39150 107 0.002733 1100 13200 36.1 36" primary The time delay could be as - 5 deg (I don't think much lower than that) which gives minus 5 deg RPM RPS Period Rate deg/sec Angle Time Sec Ft/sec inch/sec Distance Dennis Measured Distance HIGH 5350 89.16667 0.011215 32100 88 0.002741 1100 13200 36.2 36" Secondary RPM 5750 6800 113.3333 0.008824 40800 112 0.002745 1100 13200 36.2 36" primary So given that the valve opens at 5750 rpm and therefore the DIE effect at high rpm would likely be above that rpm but below the 7500 rpm "red line" for the auto, I believe these calculations are in the ball park - depending on what assumptions you want to make. At least, this is the way it appears to me. YMMV. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 2:00 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't recall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis got. That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon portion of the manifold. Tracy On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Dennis, I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake to look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engine load variables. IF my memory is correct, this value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the second rotor. At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit - or vice versa - I have to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve - the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to change the effective length of the intake runners. I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? Will get back to you shortly Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powered RV-7A I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005. FAW theory etc. I've tried to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it works and make sure it agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distance from the manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance from rotor #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runners. Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on an old engine and agree. The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a total of 10 deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 = 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 = 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it takes 8.888ms. The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg = 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.) speed of sound = 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 = 13.2 in/ms. So 13.2in/ms * 2.05 ms = 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is this is already 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 = 36 in . To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!! Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? Going FAW crazy!! Dennis H. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C96D0E.32D8F9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, Dennis has provided some = up-close photos of the intake.  It’s clear that both the primary and secondary runners are connected together through the Variable Induction = Valve (VIV) when the VIV is open above 5750 rpm (according to the Mazda literature).  That is rather interesting because on the six port = the value is opened like around 7250 rpm – but then the “red = line” on the 4 port is only 7500 rpm in the auto application, so I guess it would = need to open before red line {:>).

 

Low rpm = mode

 

It appears that IF  the 4 port = is using the DIE effect at Low rpm (<5750),  it would use the “end = of the tube” reflection of the FAW pulse below 5750 rpm to bounce the = pulse back to the same rotor that generated it (since the VIV is closed  and = prevents cross over)  – which means it would have to arrive back in = less that 60 deg of rotation if it were going to aid the intake port that = generated it OR if aiding a later port closing event then some multiple of 60 – = probably 2x60 =3D 120 deg of rotation.  That would require a tube approx 72 = inches long (depending on what rpm below 5750 you assume the “low rpm” = mode peaked at) from port to “end of tube” or first large cross sectional increase.  But, on the other hand they simply may not use = the DIE effect below 5750 rpm.

 

 

High rpm = mode

 

AT  5750 rpm the VIV opens and = the runners are then connected together and you get the pulse being = generated at one port traveling through the intake through the VIV to the second = rotor in time to assist it in retaining its charge near the closing time of the = second rotors intake  port.  Based on the intake port timing spec I = found for the 4 port,  it looks like the primary pulse has approx 117 deg = of rotation time  to get to its destination and the secondary pulse = has approx 93 deg of rotation time.  This is due to the different = opening and closing times of the primary and secondary ports.   = Interestingly the secondary opens later and closes sooner – I suspect to catch the inflowing air stream at its highest velocity.  =

 

Based on this data it looks like a = 36” (port to port) would give DIE boosts at the rpm shown.  The boost = effect the effect would peak at those rpm and fall off on each side of those = peaks.  This is based on the port opening and closing timing specs for the 4 = port engine to arrive at the angular (Angle in the chart) rotational time = required for to travel from one port to the port on the second rotor.  =

 

94.16667

0.010619

33900

93

0.002743

1100

13200

36.2

 

36"

 

Secondary

RPM

5750

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7100

118.3333

0.008451

42600

117

0.002746

1100

13200

36.3

 

36"

 

primary

 

If you assume it takes some time to generate the pulse and it needs to get to the second port before it = closes, I figure 5-10 deg of rotation is required for this activity, in which case = I reduce the amount of travel time by – 10 deg giving the following = results for 93-10 =3D 83 and 117 – 10 =3D 107 degrees travel time for the = pulse

 

 

 

Minus 10 = deg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

84.16667

0.011881

30300

83

0.002739

1100

13200

36.2

 

36"

 

Secondary

RPM

5750

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6525

108.75

0.009195

39150

107

0.002733

1100

13200

36.1

 

36"

 

primary

 

The time delay could be as - 5 deg = (I don’t think much lower than that) which gives

 

 

 

 

minus 5 = deg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RPM

RPS

Period

Rate = deg/sec

Angle

Time = Sec

 Ft/sec=

inch/sec

=

Distance

=

 

Dennis Measured Distance

 

 

HIGH

5350

89.16667

0.011215

32100

88

0.002741

1100

13200

36.2

 

36"

 

Secondary

RPM

5750

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6800

113.3333

0.008824

40800

112

0.002745

1100

13200

36.2

 

36"

 

primary

So given that the valve opens at 5750 rpm = and therefore the DIE effect at high rpm would likely be above that rpm but = below the 7500 rpm “red line” for the auto, I believe these = calculations are in the ball park – depending on what assumptions you want to = make.

At least, this is the way it appears to = me. YMMV. 

Ed

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com=

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= font size=3D2 face=3DArial>

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Sent: Friday, January 02, = 2009 2:00 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

The 4 port = Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve.  Don't recall the distance from = memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis = got.   That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon = portion of the manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t; wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll try and give you a more "detailed" = review of you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing = of the Renesis 4 port intake to look at).  However, I seem to recall that = there is a valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engine load variables.  IF my memory is correct, = this value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor = to port of the second rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes = forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM = range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit – or vice versa – = I have to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve – the older = N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to change the effective length of the intake = runners.

 

I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails = whether you took that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner)  into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. = ?

 

Will get back to you shortly =

 

Ed

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis = Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January = 01, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

OK - I'll try to stirrup some = reflective comment on the list.

I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis = powered RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and = 2005.  FAW theory etc.  I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8  4 port intake to see how = it works and make sure it
agreed with the theories.  No Luck!!? 

My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are = 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the = distance from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the = total intake is 18.0 inches.  The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens = to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  = from rotor
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary = runners.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 = deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I measured the = angle on an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you = must have some opening to enter the rotor.  I'll guess this is a total = of 10 deg.  Hence we have about 83 deg of  "E" shaft = rotation time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm.  6750/60 =3D = 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" = shaft it takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to = travel from rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So = 13.2in/ms *  2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is this is = already 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake.  If I = assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner = length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2.  I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 = =3D 36 in .

To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really = works!!  Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic?

Going FAW crazy!!

Dennis H.


 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

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