X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3408374 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:01:44 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.146.182; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so3405858wah.3 for ; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:01:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=QjCvU6HpC3ytRSXxTS6BO1ZWhalpDd9i09GFUrjrNe4=; b=ljMJwctj3Oi3PM2UxOJGglmctBWzxhy80WZytrG1DXPIuQKtc4PRwzy7urvrH3q5MP EX14x13VPtZJknM1NwTnhT0tP4CNBIAkajG01cCF9sNzmCZoRm+tU4F94X7ffSgfb5Au WLJRzXzul/BZS8RrCz4qSDSzKKN8ZXll9/qlM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=iHD6RkoKurp9HnlH/i00/kVQzMKdNBwhFrFy5ANzVe/JzbSCpEKc1+0UKUUu26Nqxs sUpt46wmwB7yJvGexShXg0fqVU32BplO0ilNEB0MOjDK2vBIFNz8NwER7D+Xd6l3cKnF Z/PisZmq4DhGssh4IQOIxsjpRQ1amUGQ287ys= Received: by 10.115.107.1 with SMTP id j1mr12076142wam.121.1230937269670; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.61.10 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:01:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0901021501m4094fafcx204769e1db3bdcfe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:01:09 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_156118_20748080.1230937269663" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 33c80777e4190468 ------=_Part_156118_20748080.1230937269663 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Yep, you're right Dennis. I had mentally reversed the order of the manifol= d valves and my measurements were between the face of the block and entry to the dynamic chamber instead of port opening to center of chamber. My best overall manifold that I used on my 2nd gen engine measured about 20 inches using your points of reference. Also keep in mind that the 4 por= t Renesis was tuned for a power peak of about 7400, not 8500 like the 6 port version. Tracy Crook On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Dennis Haverlah w= rote: > Tracy: > > The 18 inches is from the inlet face of rotor # to the center of the top > rotary valve in the cast aluminum intake. The valve is called the Variab= le > Intake Valve (VIV) > and it is open above 5750 rpm. With it open, rotor #1's primary and > secondary tubes are connected to the primary and secondary of rotor #2. > This makes the total distance from rotor #1 inlet face to #2's inlet face= =3D > 36 inches. There is another valve in the secondary intake tube called th= e > secondary shutter valve. This valve is the lowest valve on the intake > manifold. It is closed at low speed (below 3750 rpm) so at low speed onl= y > the primary inlets are used. > > Attached is a picture of the aluminum part of the manifold with the valve= s. > > Ed Anderson provided great documentation and calculations on the intake > system - Thanks ED!! > > Dennis H. > > > Tracy Crook wrote: > > The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't recall t= he > distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" > Dennis got. That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber i= n > the nylon portion of the manifold. > > Tracy > > > On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson wr= ote: > >> Dennis, >> >> >> >> I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and >> approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 p= ort >> intake to look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in = the >> air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some >> engine load variables. IF my memory is correct, this value in effect ha= lves >> (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the >> distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the >> second rotor. At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse= to >> travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to = make >> the pulse travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa =96 I have to look a= nd see >> if the Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older N/A 13Bs did have the= value >> in order to change the effective length of the intake runners. >> >> >> >> I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that >> factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) into >> consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? >> >> >> >> Will get back to you shortly >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> >> Matthews, NC >> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> http://www.andersonee.com >> >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On >> Behalf Of *Dennis Haverlah >> *Sent:* Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM >> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft >> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... >> >> >> >> OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. >> >> I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis >> powered RV-7A >> I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005. >> FAW theory etc. I've tried >> to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it wor= ks >> and make sure it >> agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? >> >> My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.= 5 >> in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber >> where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake >> runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distanc= e >> from the >> manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the >> total intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.= 5 >> inches. >> >> It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens = to >> travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance from rotor >> #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary >> runners. >> >> Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. betwee= n >> Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on an old >> engine and agree. >> The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you >> must have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a total o= f 10 >> deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time for the pul= se >> to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. >> >> I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 =3D 112.5 r= ps; >> 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it = takes >> 8.888ms. >> The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg = =3D >> 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.= ) >> speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms. So 13.2in/ms *= 2.05 >> ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is this is already 5 i= n./ >> intake *shorter* than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I assume their intake >> is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of *2= 1.3 >> inches* is needed between rotor >> 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be *18 in * 2 =3D 36 = in >> .* >> >> To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!! >> Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? >> >> Going FAW crazy!! >> >> Dennis H. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > ------=_Part_156118_20748080.1230937269663 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Yep, you're right Dennis.  I had mentally reversed the order of th= e manifold valves and my measurements were between the face of the block an= d entry to the dynamic chamber instead of port opening to center of chamber= .
   My best overall manifold that I used on my 2nd gen engine meas= ured about 20 inches using your points of reference.  Also keep in min= d that the 4 port Renesis was tuned for a power peak of about 7400, not 850= 0 like the 6 port version. 

Tracy Crook


On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 a= t 3:13 PM, Dennis Haverlah <clouduster@austin.rr.com> wrote:
=20 =20
Tracy:

The 18 inches is from the inlet face of rotor # to the center of the top rotary valve in the cast aluminum intake.  The valve is called the Variable Intake Valve (VIV)
and it is open above 5750 rpm.  With it open,  rotor #1's pri= mary and secondary tubes are connected to the primary and secondary of rotor #2.  This makes the total distance from rotor #1 inlet face to #2'= s inlet face  =3D 36 inches.  There is another valve in the seconda= ry intake tube called the secondary shutter valve.  This valve is the lowest valve on the intake manifold.  It is closed at low speed (below 3750 rpm) so at low speed only the primary inlets are used.

Attached is a picture of the aluminum part of the manifold with the valves.

Ed Anderson provided great documentation and calculations on the intake system -  Thanks ED!!

Dennis H.


Tracy Crook wrote:
The 4 p= ort Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve.  Don't recall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18"= ; Dennis got.   That must have been the distance to the low speed c= hamber in the nylon portion of the manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake to look at).  However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engine load variables.  IF my memory is correct, this value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the second rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa =96 I have to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to change the effective length of the intake runners.

 

I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner)  into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ?

 

Will get back to you shortly

 

Ed

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list.

I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powered RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.  FAW theory etc.  I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8  4 port intake to see how it works and make sure it
agreed with the theories.  No Luck!!? 

My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distance from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches.  The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  fro= m rotor
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runners.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 = deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I measured the angle o= n an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some opening to enter the rotor.  I'll guess this is a total = of 10 deg.  Hence we have about 83 deg of  "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm.  6750/60 =3D 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" sh= aft it takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So 13.2in/ms= *  2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is this is alre= ady 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake.  If I assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2.  I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D 36 in .

To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!!  Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic?

Going FAW crazy!!

Dennis H.



 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



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