X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.192] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTPS id 3408320 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 16:35:12 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.192; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-109-48-212.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.109.48.212]) by mail11.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n02LYQwk012697 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 08:34:27 +1100 Message-ID: <745E33FDF766490C97BAC8D59C0C5670@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 07:34:29 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C96D75.B6250350" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090102-0, 02/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C96D75.B6250350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I only had two JPG's. George ( down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:26 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Greg, it could be the size of your jpegs attachments . reduce size to = about 40k or less 2-3 total photos. JWW =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... =20 Anybody have any idea why I get bounced when I try to attach and = download some engine progress pictures??? Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... =20 The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't = recall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less = than the 18" Dennis got. That must have been the distance to the low = speed chamber in the nylon portion of the manifold. Tracy =20 On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Dennis, =20 I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and = approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 = port intake to look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a = valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed = depending of some engine load variables. IF my memory is correct, this = value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are = using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of = one rotor to port of the second rotor. At the right rpm range the value = closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it = opens at the lower RPM range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit - = or vice versa - I have to look and see if the Renesis even has such a = valve - the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to change the = effective length of the intake runners. =20 I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took = that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) = into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? =20 Will get back to you shortly=20 =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... =20 OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 = Renesis powered RV-7A I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and = 2005. FAW theory etc. I've tried=20 to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it = works and make sure it=20 agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? =20 My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are = 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber=20 where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake = runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the = distance from the=20 manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and = the total intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at = 18.5 inches. =20 It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake = opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance = from rotor=20 #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for = secondary runners. Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. = between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on = an old engine and agree. =20 The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 = you must have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a = total of 10 deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time = for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 =3D = 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the = "E" shaft it takes 8.888ms. The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be = 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to = travel from rotor #1 to #2.) speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms. So = 13.2in/ms * 2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is = this is already 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I = assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a = runner length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor=20 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D = 36 in . To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really = works!! Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? Going FAW crazy!! Dennis H. =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C96D75.B6250350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I only had two JPG's.
George ( down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff=20 Whaley
Sent: Saturday, January 03, = 2009 7:26=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

Greg,=20 it could be the size of your jpegs attachments =85 reduce size to = about 40k or=20 less 2-3 total photos.

JWW

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg = Ward
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:25 PM
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

 

Anybody = have any idea=20 why I get bounced when I try to attach and download some engine = progress=20 pictures???

Greg=20 Ward

Lancair = 20B in=20 progress

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: Tracy=20 Crook

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Friday, January=20 02, 2009 10:59 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

 

The 4 port = Renesis does have=20 the high speed barrel valve.  Don't recall the distance from = memory but=20 just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis = got.   That=20 must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon = portion of=20 the manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll=20 try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and = approach in a=20 short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake = to look=20 at).  However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the = air=20 passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some = engine=20 load variables.  IF my memory is correct, this value in effect = halves=20 (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) = the=20 distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of = the=20 second rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes forcing = the=20 pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower = RPM=20 range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa = =96 I have to=20 look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older N/A = 13Bs did=20 have the value in order to change the effective length of the intake = runners.

 

I=20 can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took = that factor=20 (the valve changing the effective length of the runner)  into=20 consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one.=20 ?

 

Will=20 get back to you shortly

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A=20 N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

From: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of = Dennis=20 Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 = AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

 

OK - = I'll try to=20 stirrup some reflective comment on the list.

I'm in the = middle of=20 trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powered = RV-7A
I've been=20 reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.  = FAW=20 theory etc.  I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda=20 RX-8  4 port intake to see how it works and make sure it =
agreed=20 with the theories.  No Luck!!? 

My measurements of = the=20 cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 in. long + 2.5 = inch to=20 the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 = interact=20 with rotor 2's intake runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( = engine=20 flange) for the distance from the
manifold flange to the center = of the=20 intake at the rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches.  = The=20 secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It = appears=20 they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to = travel=20 through the intake tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  = from rotor=20
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for = secondary=20 runners.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft = rotation of 93=20 deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I measured = the=20 angle on an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from rotor #1 = needs=20 some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some opening to = enter the=20 rotor.  I'll guess this is a total of 10 deg.  Hence we = have about=20 83 deg of  "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to travel from = rotor=20 #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my intake for max. HP at = 6750=20 rpm.  6750/60 =3D 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for = 360 deg=20 rotation of the "E" shaft it takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg = of "E"=20 shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time = available=20 for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound =3D = 1100fps or=20 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So 13.2in/ms *  2.05 ms =3D = 26.4 inch from=20 rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is this is already 5 in./ intake=20 shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake.  If I assume their = intake=20 is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length = of=20 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2.  I = measured=20 the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D 36 in = .

To me it=20 appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!!  = Anyone=20 have any ideas or find an error with the logic?

Going FAW=20 crazy!!

Dennis H.


 



__________ Information from = ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

=  

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