X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.184] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTPS id 3408317 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 16:33:49 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.184; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-109-48-212.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.109.48.212]) by mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n02LX4nE022195 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 08:33:05 +1100 Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 07:33:06 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C96D75.84D25D70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090102-0, 02/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C96D75.84D25D70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had the same problem when I tried to send some JPG's on the rotary = timing. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:25 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Anybody have any idea why I get bounced when I try to attach and = download some engine progress pictures??? Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't = recall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less = than the 18" Dennis got. That must have been the distance to the low = speed chamber in the nylon portion of the manifold. Tracy =20 On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson = wrote: Dennis, I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and = approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 = port intake to look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a = valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed = depending of some engine load variables. IF my memory is correct, this = value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are = using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of = one rotor to port of the second rotor. At the right rpm range the value = closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it = opens at the lower RPM range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit = =96 or vice versa =96 I have to look and see if the Renesis even has = such a valve =96 the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to = change the effective length of the intake runners. I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took = that factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) = into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? Will get back to you shortly=20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 = Renesis powered RV-7A I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and = 2005. FAW theory etc. I've tried=20 to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how = it works and make sure it=20 agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? =20 My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners = are 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber=20 where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's = intake runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the = distance from the=20 manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and = the total intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at = 18.5 inches. =20 It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake = opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance = from rotor=20 #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for = secondary runners. Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. = between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on = an old engine and agree. =20 The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 = you must have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a = total of 10 deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time = for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 =3D = 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the = "E" shaft it takes 8.888ms. The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be = 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to = travel from rotor #1 to #2.) speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms. So = 13.2in/ms * 2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is = this is already 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I = assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a = runner length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor=20 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 = =3D 36 in . To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really = works!! Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? Going FAW crazy!! Dennis H. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C96D75.84D25D70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I had the same problem when I tried to = send some=20 JPG's on the rotary timing.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg=20 Ward
Sent: Saturday, January 03, = 2009 7:25=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

Anybody have any idea why I get bounced = when I try=20 to attach and download some engine progress = pictures???
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B in = progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy Crook
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, January 02, = 2009 10:59=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Activity......

The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel=20 valve.  Don't recall the distance from memory but just a guess = is=20 considerably less than the 18" Dennis got.   That must = have been=20 the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon portion of the=20 manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll = try and give=20 you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approach in a = short while=20 (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake to look=20 at).  However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the = air=20 passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of = some=20 engine load variables.  IF my memory is correct, this value = in effect=20 halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for = reference)=20 the distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to = port of the=20 second rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes = forcing the=20 pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the = lower RPM=20 range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa = =96 I have=20 to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older = N/A 13Bs=20 did have the value in order to change the effective length of the = intake=20 runners.

 

I can = not tell=20 from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that factor = (the valve=20 changing the effective length of the runner)  into = consideration or=20 indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ?

 

Will = get back to=20 you shortly

 

Ed

 

Ed = Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= FONT=20 face=3DArial size=3D2>

From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis=20 Haverlah
Sent: = Thursday,=20 January 01, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective = comment=20 on the list.

I'm in the middle of trying to design a new = intake for=20 my RX-8 Renesis powered RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned = intake=20 discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.  FAW theory etc.  = I've=20 tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8  4 port = intake to=20 see how it works and make sure it
agreed with the = theories.  No=20 Luck!!? 

My measurements of the cast aluminum intake = show=20 primary runners are 12.5 in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the = chamber=20
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's = intake=20 runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for = the=20 distance from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake = at the=20 rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches.  The = secondaries are=20 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It appears they are = using=20 the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to travel through = the intake=20 tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  from rotor
#1 to = rotor=20 #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary=20 runners.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft = rotation of=20 93 deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I = measured=20 the angle on an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from = rotor #1=20 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some = opening to=20 enter the rotor.  I'll guess this is a total of 10 deg.  = Hence=20 we have about 83 deg of  "E" shaft rotation time for the = pulse to=20 travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my = intake for=20 max. HP at 6750 rpm.  6750/60 =3D 112.5 rps; 1/112.5 =3D = 0.008888rev/sec=20 or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it takes 8.888ms.
The = time for=20 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D = 2.05ms. (the=20 time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to = #2.)
speed of=20 sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So 13.2in/ms = * =20 2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is = this is=20 already 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port = intake.  If=20 I assume their intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation = indicates a=20 runner length of 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 = and=20 #2.  I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 = =3D 36 in=20 .

To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 = intake=20 really works!!  Anyone have any ideas or find an error with = the=20 logic?

Going FAW crazy!!

Dennis=20 H.



 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32=20 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


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