X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from exhub003-1.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.28] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTPS id 3408306 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 16:27:05 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.28; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by exhub003-1.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.28]) with mapi; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:26:27 -0800 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:26:27 -0800 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Thread-Index: AcltHwOSW4iectmJRLuRmTcD52U22gAAYlrw Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED135E3604DEXVMBX0035exc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED135E3604DEXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, it could be the size of your jpegs attachments ... reduce size to abo= ut 40k or less 2-3 total photos. JWW From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Greg Ward Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:25 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... Anybody have any idea why I get bounced when I try to attach and download s= ome engine progress pictures??? Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:59 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't recall the= distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" De= nnis got. That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in th= e nylon portion of the manifold. Tracy On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson > wrote: Dennis, I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approach= in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake = to look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the air pa= ssages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engine l= oad variables. IF my memory is correct, this value in effect halves (or do= ubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the distance t= he pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the second rotor. = At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the sh= orter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to make the pulse t= ravel a longer circuit - or vice versa - I have to look and see if the Rene= sis even has such a valve - the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order = to change the effective length of the intake runners. I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that fac= tor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) into considera= tion or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? Will get back to you shortly Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powe= red RV-7A I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005. FA= W theory etc. I've tried to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it works = and make sure it agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 i= n. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runner= s. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distance from th= e manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total= intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches= . It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to = travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance from rotor #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runne= rs. Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. between R= otor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on an old engin= e and agree. The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must= have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a total of 10 de= g. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to= travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 =3D 112.5 rps;= 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it ta= kes 8.888ms. The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D= 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.) speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms. So 13.2in/ms * 2= .05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is this is already 5 = in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I assume their intake = is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of 21.3 = inches is needed between rotor 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D 36 in . To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!! An= yone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? Going FAW crazy!! Dennis H. __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED135E3604DEXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greg, it could be the size of your jpegs attachments …= reduce size to about 40k or less 2-3 total photos.

JWW

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Greg Ward=
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 4:25 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

Anybody have = any idea why I get bounced when I try to attach and download some engine progress pictures???

Greg Ward

Lancair 20B i= n progress

----- Original Message -----

From: Tracy Crook

Sent: Friday, Januar= y 02, 2009 10:59 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Activity......

 

The 4 port Renesis does= have the high speed barrel valve.  Don't recall the distance from memory bu= t just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis got.   That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon port= ion of the manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake to look at).  However, I seem to recall that there is a valve i= n the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of som= e engine load variables.  IF my memory is correct, this value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) t= he distance the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the seco= nd rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to mak= e the pulse travel a longer circuit – or vice versa – I have to l= ook and see if the Renesis even has such a valve – the older N/A 13Bs did have the v= alue in order to change the effective length of the intake runners.

 

I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that facto= r (the valve changing the effective length of the runner)  into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ?

 

Will get back to you shortly

 

Ed

 

Fr= om: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

OK - I'll try= to stirrup some reflective comment on the list.

I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis powe= red RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.&nbs= p; FAW theory etc.  I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8  4 port intake to see how it w= orks and make sure it
agreed with the theories.  No Luck!!? 

My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 i= n. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the dista= nce from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches.  The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  fro= m rotor
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runne= rs.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I measured the angle o= n an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some opening to enter the rotor.  I'll guess this is a total of 1= 0 deg.  Hence we have about 83 deg of  "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm.  6750/60 =3D 112.5= rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" sh= aft it takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to trave= l from rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So 13.2in/ms= *  2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is this is alre= ady 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake.  If I assume t= heir intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length o= f 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2.  I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D= 36 in .

To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!!&nbs= p; Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic?

Going FAW crazy!!

Dennis H.


 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

 

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