X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.178] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3408079 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:00:28 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.146.178; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id j4so3365628wah.3 for ; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:59:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ANvuohVRBGG8KHvk3Jg3lkeSAvWx5AyPlQLP787wvOM=; b=Bg4FkY22vpb+EYgrVtQgNX49LQ96+eVCQCOBQ9CMvJRZ0BGCnekefleGd9S/WNhgLy D9h756/YOYDCin+U5xP/qsLRVyBvtNiEX4giPPlXImG+aFUrvq9Ib0680cTdgQHWqhr0 Ew+LNLJ+ep9VSs18N6vlg9bjipUUWqsq9vkxw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=s5QvfN0mX8Lixj7hABgO9aycXJCHTA2u4V65LemUeT7PKP+9vByItnEBrh49MGvCdp qz9GPsoUYT9QDOo7nOTqtm+EVXeksXPrGg+i0oevI5Wn2TwRIZrhz4Edxm13JnoQXLMQ 7acoyX1t6HqzYG/7ujg13P2mA5qUGy0hgrSAs= Received: by 10.114.24.5 with SMTP id 5mr11961209wax.106.1230922790906; Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.61.10 with HTTP; Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:59:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0901021059k4f1c398dr232c6467f7899d09@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:59:50 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_153131_26345702.1230922790897" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 640b4ed06f134be7 ------=_Part_153131_26345702.1230922790897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve. Don't recall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than the 18" Dennis got. That must have been the distance to the low speed chamber in the nylon portion of the manifold. Tracy On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson wrot= e: > Dennis, > > > > I'll try and give you a more "detailed" review of you analysis and approa= ch > in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake= to > look at). However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the air > passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engi= ne > load variables. IF my memory is correct, this value in effect halves (or > doubles depending on which runner you are using for reference) the distan= ce > the pulse has to travel from port of one rotor to port of the second roto= r. > At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the > shorter distance (or else it opens at the lower RPM range to make the pul= se > travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa =96 I have to look and see if t= he > Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older N/A 13Bs did have the value i= n > order to change the effective length of the intake runners. > > > > I can not tell from my hasty look at your e mails whether you took that > factor (the valve changing the effective length of the runner) into > consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has one. ? > > > > Will get back to you shortly > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Dennis Haverlah > *Sent:* Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:59 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Activity...... > > > > OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list. > > I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis > powered RV-7A > I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005. > FAW theory etc. I've tried > to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8 4 port intake to see how it work= s > and make sure it > agreed with the theories. No Luck!!? > > My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 > in. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber > where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake > runners. Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the distance > from the > manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the tot= al > intake is 18.0 inches. The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inche= s. > > > It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens t= o > travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2. Total distance from rotor > #1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary > runners. > > Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 deg. between > Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing. I measured the angle on an old > engine and agree. > The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you mu= st > have some opening to enter the rotor. I'll guess this is a total of 10 > deg. Hence we have about 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation time for the puls= e > to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2. > > I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm. 6750/60 =3D 112.5 rp= s; > 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" shaft it t= akes > 8.888ms. > The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg = =3D > 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to #2.) > speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms. So 13.2in/ms * = 2.05 > ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2. My problem is this is already 5 in= ./ > intake *shorter* than the RX-8 4 port intake. If I assume their intake i= s > designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length of *21.3 > inches* is needed between rotor > 31 and #2. I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be *18 in * 2 =3D 36 i= n . > * > > To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!! > Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic? > > Going FAW crazy!! > > Dennis H. > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > ------=_Part_153131_26345702.1230922790897 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline The 4 port Renesis does have the high speed barrel valve.  Don't r= ecall the distance from memory but just a guess is considerably less than t= he 18" Dennis got.   That must have been the distance to the= low speed chamber in the nylon portion of the manifold.

Tracy
 

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 = at 2:08 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Dennis,

 

I'll try and give you a more "deta= iled" review of you analysis and approach in a short while (I have to dig up a drawing of the Renesis 4 port intake to look at).  However, I seem to recall that there is a valve in the air passages of the intake that rotates open or closed depending of some engine load variables.  IF my memory = is correct, this value in effect halves (or doubles depending on which runner = you are using for reference) the distance the pulse has to travel from port of = one rotor to port of the second rotor.  At the right rpm range the value closes forcing the pulse to travel the shorter distance (or else it opens a= t the lower RPM range to make the pulse travel a longer circuit =96 or vice versa =96 I have to look and see if the Renesis even has such a valve =96 the older N/A 13Bs did have the value in order to change the effective leng= th of the intake runners.

 

I can not tell from my hasty look = at your e mails whether you took that factor (the valve changing the effective leng= th of the runner)  into consideration or indeed, if the Renesis even has = one. ?

 

Will get back to you shortly

 

Ed

 

Fro= m: Rotary = motors in aircraft [mailto:fl= yrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, January 01= , 2009 11:59 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Activity......

 

OK - I'll try to stirrup some reflective comment on the list.

I'm in the middle of trying to design a new intake for my RX-8 Renesis = powered RV-7A
I've been reading the tuned intake discussion posts from 2004 and 2005.=   FAW theory etc.  I've tried
to apply the theories to the Mazda RX-8  4 port intake to see how it w= orks and make sure it
agreed with the theories.  No Luck!!? 

My measurements of the cast aluminum intake show primary runners are 12.5 i= n. long + 2.5 inch to the center of the chamber
where the intake runners from rotor 1 interact with rotor 2's intake runners.  Add 3 inches at the other end ( engine flange) for the dista= nce from the
manifold flange to the center of the intake at the rotor face and the total intake is 18.0 inches.  The secondaries are 1/2 inch longer at 18.5 inches. 

It appears they are using the FAW wave created as Rotor #1 intake opens to travel through the intake tubes to Rotor #2.  Total distance  fro= m rotor
#1 to rotor #2 is 36 in. for primary runners and 37 in. for secondary runne= rs.

Ed's post of Aug. 26,04 indicated a "E" shaft rotation of 93 = deg. between Rotor #1 opening and Rotor #2 closing.  I measured the angle o= n an old engine and agree. 
The pulse from rotor #1 needs some opening to exit and at rotor #2 you must have some opening to enter the rotor.  I'll guess this is a total = of 10 deg.  Hence we have about 83 deg of  "E" shaft rotation time for the pulse to travel from rotor #1 to rotor #2.

I want to design my intake for max. HP at 6750 rpm.  6750/60 =3D 112.5= rps; 1/112.5 =3D 0.008888rev/sec or for 360 deg rotation of the "E" sh= aft it takes 8.888ms.
The time for 83 deg of "E" shaft rotation would be 8.888ms*83deg/360deg =3D 2.05ms. (the time available for the pulse to trave= l from rotor #1 to #2.)
speed of sound =3D 1100fps or 1.1f/ms*12 =3D 13.2 in/ms.  So 13.2in/ms= *  2.05 ms =3D 26.4 inch from rotor #1 to #2.  My problem is this is alre= ady 5 in./ intake shorter than the RX-8 4 port intake.  If I assume t= heir intake is designed for 8500 rpm the calculation indicates a runner length o= f 21.3 inches is needed between rotor
31 and #2.  I measured the RX-8 cast al. intake to be 18 in * 2 =3D= 36 in .

To me it appears I do not understand how the RX-8 intake really works!!&nbs= p; Anyone have any ideas or find an error with the logic?

Going FAW crazy!!

Dennis H.



 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


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