X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3363529 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:53:14 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20081216125235.IGBC26227.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:52:35 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Injectors & Indicated RPM's questions Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:58:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01C95F54.16D4DBB0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AclfT+oEFgYzDlIkTlybvn72Vw0/gQAJd0oA In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20081216125235.IGBC26227.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C95F54.16D4DBB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Chris, Good to hear you are making progress on the problem that side-tracked you from your engine tuning. I have a street ported turbo block 13B (sans turbo) and here are some observations that may (may not) help. The fact that both pairs of you injectors click when in simulations mode indicates that at a minimum you have good EC2 connections and power to both sets of injectors. I find that my engine will run on either pair at any rpm below 6000 rpm. However, at lower rpm, I must temporarily enrich the mixture manual before turning off the primaries or it will miss and likely died when switching the primary off and the secondary on. I can achieve 6000 rpm on primary or secondary injectors only. I am using the 460 cc/min injector size for both primary and secondary. Your simulation test indicates that both sets of injectors are wire to the EC2 correctly and functioning as attested to by their clicking. So that would indicate to me only one condition that fits the symptoms you describe. 1. The EC2 is not staging properly (for what ever reason) IF the EC2 (for whatever reason) is not staging (turning on all four injectors) then you could get the indications you see. The * at WOT is I presume (I don't have an EM2) and indication of the EC2 firing only the primary injectors. So that also indicates the EC2 is not staging. I think the most likely reason (again assuming no malfunction) is that the staging point is not set properly. Since the EC2 uses manifold pressure to decide when to stage, the first thing I would check is whether you staging point in the EC2 is set correctly. I know of one flyer who intentionally sets his staging point very high (like above 29.92" Hg) so that all four of his injectors are only firing when he is running boost. In other word, he intentionally runs on only two injectors - the primary set - most of the time until he hits his boost point. IF your manifold pressure staging point were set too high, then you would get exactly the symptoms you are seeing. The EC2 simply never reaches the staging point and therefore only the primary injectors are ever activated. That is the only thing that I can think of that would cause the effects you are seeing. At least that is my take on it. Tracy, of course, would be the one to provide the definitive word. IF I were you I would check the manual and find out which mode controls the staging point and then use the procedures in the manual to set it to back to default. This should bring the staging point back down to 15-17" Hg and IF this is the problem - solve the problem. All I can think of to suggest. Good Luck Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:27 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Injectors & Indicated RPM's questions Now that I hopefully have my strakes mostly repaired I am able to focus on the engine again. So, in that vain I have been able to run it the last few days trying to get it tuned properly and hopefully reliably. We have had some cool weather.....heck, for Houston it has been downright cold dipping into the mid 40's, thus allowing me to run the engine at higher power settings for a bit longer. Also, based on discussions here last week I am modifying my cooling system a bit...I have had my small hose opening on my rear iron plugged up to this time, but will modify when my new aluminum expansion tank arrives. Funny, after following rotary stuff for years I missed this apparent cooling convention. One issue I am having is that regardless of how high I push my rpm's it appears that I am only running on the primary injectors. The EM2 continues to display the asterisk even at WOT. Also, when I shut down the primaries at high rpm's (well over the staging point....3000 ish?) the engine dies...actually, it dies whenever I shut the primaries off but I would expect that at lower rpm's and idle (kinda rough idle around 1500 rpm, but also kinda expected with a medium street port). So, to confuse me more in my initial diagnostic I shut off the engine, kill the fuel pumps and place the EC2 in Mode 1, injector diagnostic. All four injectors fire away....I shut off the primaries and the secondary's chirp away. I shut off the secondary's and the primaries still clatter on. This is what I expected, it just is not doing the same thing when the engine is actually running. Thoughts? Also, a second issue, one I was just starting to try to solve when my strakes became the priority, is that as I approach 6000 rpm on my EM2 display the indicated rpm starts jumping all over the place....1200, 3543, 3333, 2650, 6314.......randomly. It is doing this even though the engine is still developing more power, obviously over 6000 rpm...as you can tell by the sound and the increased power. As I throttle back to about 5900 the indicator starts displaying as expected again. Additional thoughts? As always thanks for your consideration and insights. Finally, it is kinda kewl to have the "airport types" stop by to comment on the noise.....music...noise....music....all in the ear of the listener . Today Gary Hunter, a name well known to most fast glass guys (he is also the crew chief for Bruce Bohanon's Flying Tiger) stopped by and said it sounded "strong". Wahoo. Gotta take the small victories. Thanks again. All the best, Chris Barber Houston www.LoneStarVelocity.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C95F54.16D4DBB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Chris,

 

Good to hear you are making = progress on the problem that side-tracked you from your engine = tuning.

 

I have a street ported turbo block = 13B (sans turbo) and here are some observations that may (may not) = help.

 

The fact that both pairs of you = injectors click when in simulations mode indicates that at a minimum you have good = EC2 connections and power to both sets of injectors.  I find that my = engine will run on either pair at any rpm below 6000 rpm.  However, at = lower rpm, I must temporarily  enrich the mixture manual before turning off = the primaries or it will miss and likely died when switching the primary off = and the secondary on.   I can achieve 6000 rpm on primary or = secondary injectors only.  I am using the 460 cc/min injector size for both primary and secondary. 

 

Your simulation test indicates that = both sets of injectors are wire to the EC2 correctly and functioning as = attested to by their clicking.  So that would indicate to me only one condition = that fits the symptoms you describe.

 

  1. The EC2 is not staging properly (for what ever = reason)

 

 

IF the EC2 (for whatever reason) is = not staging (turning on all four injectors) then you could get the = indications you see.  The * at WOT  is I presume (I don’t have an EM2) = and indication of the EC2 firing only the primary injectors.  So that = also  indicates the EC2 is not staging.  I think the most likely reason (again = assuming no malfunction)  is that the staging point is not set = properly.

 

 Since the EC2 uses manifold = pressure to decide when to stage, the first thing I would check is whether you = staging point in the EC2 is set correctly.  I know of one flyer who = intentionally sets his staging point very high (like above 29.92” Hg) so that = all four of his injectors are only firing when he is running boost.  In = other word, he intentionally runs on only two injectors – the primary set = – most of the time until he hits his boost = point.

 

IF your manifold pressure staging = point were set too high, then you would get exactly the symptoms you are seeing.  The EC2 simply never reaches the staging point and = therefore only the primary injectors are ever activated.  That is the only thing = that I can think of that would cause the effects you are = seeing.

 

At least that is my take on = it.  Tracy, of = course, would be the one to provide the definitive word.  IF I were you I would = check the manual and find out which mode controls the staging point and then = use the procedures in the manual to set it to back to default.  This should = bring the staging point back down to 15-17” Hg and IF this is the = problem – solve the problem. 

 

 

 

All I can think of to = suggest.

 

Good = Luck

 

Ed

 

 

 

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary = Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com=

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= font size=3D2 face=3DArial>

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Tuesday, December = 16, 2008 2:27 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Injectors & Indicated RPM's questions

 

Now that I hopefully have my strakes mostly repaired = I am able to focus on the engine again.  So, in that vain I have been = able to run it the last few days trying to get it tuned properly and hopefully reliably.  We have had some cool weather.....heck, for Houston it has been downright cold = dipping into the mid 40's, thus allowing me to run the engine at higher power = settings for a bit longer.  Also, based on discussions here last week I am modifying my cooling system a bit...I have had my small hose opening on = my rear iron plugged up to this time, but will modify when my new aluminum = expansion tank arrives.  Funny, after following rotary stuff for years I = missed this apparent cooling convention.

 

One issue I am having is that regardless of how high = I push my rpm's it appears that I am only running on the primary = injectors.  The EM2 continues to display the asterisk even at WOT.  Also, when I = shut down the primaries at high rpm's (well over the staging point....3000 ish?) = the engine dies...actually, it dies whenever I shut the primaries off but I = would expect that at lower rpm's and idle (kinda rough idle around 1500 rpm, = but also kinda expected with a medium street port).  So, to confuse me = more in my initial diagnostic I shut off the engine, kill the fuel pumps and = place the EC2 in Mode 1, injector diagnostic.  All four injectors fire = away....I shut off the primaries and the secondary's chirp away.  I shut off = the secondary's and the primaries still clatter on.  This is what I = expected, it just is not doing the same thing when the engine is actually = running.  Thoughts?

 

Also, a second issue, one I was just starting to try = to solve when my strakes became the priority, is that as I approach 6000 = rpm on my EM2 display the indicated rpm starts jumping all over the place....1200, = 3543, 3333, 2650, 6314.......randomly.  It is doing this even though the = engine is still developing more power, obviously over 6000 rpm...as you can = tell by the sound and the increased power.  As I throttle back to = about 5900 the indicator starts displaying as expected again. Additional = thoughts?

 

As always thanks for your consideration and = insights.

 

Finally, it is kinda kewl to have the "airport types" stop by to comment on the = noise.....music...noise....music....all in the ear of the listener <g>.  Today Gary Hunter, a name = well known to most fast glass guys (he is also the crew chief for Bruce = Bohanon's Flying Tiger) stopped by and said it sounded "strong".  Wahoo.  Gotta take the small = victories.

 

Thanks again.

 

All the best,

 

Chris Barber

Houston



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