X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-4.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.111] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTPS id 3350506 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:02:01 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.111; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-4.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.111]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 06:01:22 -0800 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft CC: Lynn Hanover Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 06:01:22 -0800 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool Thread-Index: AclZ+sEb60Gvmh8QSuOZFGdjepWM6QACwfAg Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5C24EXVMBX0035exc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5C24EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, there is an unused water connection on my rear iron. At present I hav= e a short hose on it and it's plugged. What about extending the hose a bit and replacing the plug with a snifter v= alve, or keeping the plug and using this hose as an auxiliary water filing = point? It could easily be elevated to the highest point in the system and u= sed as an air burping point on the ground. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Lynn Hanover Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:34 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool There used to be a water temp sensor in a hole in the flat spot in the top = of the center iron. Done away with years back, it was a perfect place to le= t the air out of the block. The air is now removed slowly because the front= of the engine (in the car) is tipped up a bit, and the air collects near t= he water outlet, and is eventually pumped out of the block to be removed to= the top of the radiator where it sits still until the cap cycles and lets = some of it out. When the front of the engine is level with the back, or, ti= pped down, this is no longer possible. Air pools at the rear iron and there= is not enough flow rate to move it anywhere. At 30 degrees, you are close to not needing a water radiator to cool the en= gine. The engines are cold blooded, and do not start readily when carburett= ed. The intake looks like Santas beard until some heat is built up. We trie= d to race once when the temps were that low. I got mine to start with two c= ans of WD-40 spraying into the carb at once. Then when the WD-40 was shut o= ff, the engine would die. We got it hot by dragging it around the paddock w= ith the tow vehicle. The ignition was on and the fuel pumps, but it did not= make enough power to run by itself. So we did a few laps with the enging h= alf running, and it got some heat into it, and could fast idle (2,200 RPM) = on its own. It had a 160 degree thermostat with a 3/16 hole through the rim= to let air bubbles through. After a few light laps with 2/3 of the radiato= r taped over we got 120 degrees of water temp. The engine was cooling with = a 3/16" water supply. I took out that thermostat and put in a 180 degree thermostat with no holes= through the rim, and that got us enough heat to race on. 150 degrees a spe= ed. The complex and expensive stock Mazda thermostat was designed to provide a = closed loop of coolant in the block to heat the engine rapidly, and uniform= ly. The two reasons are: Poor combustion in the large and cold combustion c= hambers, thus high HC output, and the block is heated on only on the plugs = side. Inlet air and fuel on the exhaust side overcool that side. So it is t= he job of the coolant to keep the exhaust side of the engine close to the t= emperature of the plug side so the engine remains about the same length on = both sides. So, there are more case bolts on the hot side than on the cold= side. You may discover that when overheated massively, the rotor housings = on the hot side will be shorter after the engine cools, and begin leaking w= ater. There is also a need to have more clamping around the combustion cham= ber to prevent scrubbing the housings on the irons. Very high output engine= s use an additional dowl around each case bolt to prevent such movement. A fixed rate of heating to an overheat suggests too small a radiator. A rat= her sudden overheat suggests trapped air in the system. If radiator size is= marginal, a reduction in power will reduce coolant temps. If the system ha= s air in it, the temperature will remain high or go still higher. For oil cooling, the power setting has a closer connection to the temperatu= re. So on a scalding hot day shifting at 9,400 RPM rather than 9,600 RPM wi= ll bring the oil temps right down. I look for 180 water and 160 oil, but 20= 0 water and 200 oil won't hurt anything. Lynn E. Hanover Hi Neil, Yes, I recall that you and Jim did use a thermostat plugs up with no proble= m. I found burping the block (actually my cores) necessary even without a= thermostat. It could be that I did it the same number of times I did with= out the thermostat and that was insufficient. I normally would run the engine 5000 rpm for 30-40 seconds to burp the air.= Would need to do this about 3 times before I got all the air out of my co= res. Because of my ignorance of all factors early on when designing the p= lumbing for the cores, I had both inlet and outlet on the bottom - not cond= ucive to getting air out of the cores. So should have one tube going in the bottom and the other out the top or bo= th out the top or at least a spigot on top to release the air as the tanks = filled. You know - the old "should have, could have, would have - but didn't". No= w it's just simpler to burp the engine three times on the infrequent occasi= ons I drain the coolant. --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5C24EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lynn, there is an unused water connection on my rear iron. A= t present I have a short hose on it and it’s plugged.=

What about extending the hose a bit and replacing the plug w= ith a snifter valve, or keeping the plug and using this hose as an auxiliary wa= ter filing point? It could easily be elevated to the highest point in the syste= m and used as an air burping point on the ground.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Lynn Hano= ver
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:34 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool=

 

There used to be a water temp sensor in a hole in the flat spot= in the top of the center iron. Done away with years back, it was a perfect pla= ce to let the air out of the block. The air is now removed slowly because the front of the engine (in the car) is tipped up a bit, and the air collects n= ear the water outlet, and is eventually pumped out of the block to be removed t= o the top of the radiator where it sits still until the cap cycles and lets s= ome of it out. When the front of the engine is level with the back, or, tipped down, this is no longer possible. Air pools at the rear iron and there is n= ot enough flow rate to move it anywhere.

 

At 30 degrees, you are close to not needing a water radiator to cool the engine. The engines are cold blooded, and do not start readily whe= n carburetted. The intake looks like Santas beard until some heat is built up= . We tried to race once when the temps were that low. I got mine to start with t= wo cans of WD-40 spraying into the carb at once. Then when the WD-40 was shut = off, the engine would die. We got it hot by dragging it around the paddock with = the tow vehicle. The ignition was on and the fuel pumps, but it did not make en= ough power to run by itself. So we did a few laps with the enging half running, = and it got some heat into it, and could fast idle (2,200 RPM) on its own. It ha= d a 160 degree thermostat with a 3/16 hole through the rim to let air bubbles through. After a few light laps with 2/3 of the radiator taped over we got = 120 degrees of water temp. The engine was cooling with a 3/16" water suppl= y.

I took out that thermostat and put in a 180 degree thermos= tat with no holes through the rim, and that got us enough heat to race on. 150 degrees a speed.

 

The complex and expensive stock Mazda thermostat was desig= ned to provide a closed loop of coolant in the block to heat the engine rapidly= , and uniformly. The two reasons are: Poor combustion in the large and cold combustion chambers, thus high HC output, and the block is heated on only o= n the plugs side. Inlet air and fuel on the exhaust side overcool that s= ide. So it is the job of the coolant to keep the exhaust side of the engine clos= e to the temperature of the plug side so the engine remains about the same lengt= h on both sides.  So, there are more case bolts on the hot side than on the cold side. You may discover that when overheated massively, the rotor housi= ngs on the hot side will be shorter after the engine cools, and begin leaking water. There is also a need to have more clamping around the combustion cha= mber to prevent scrubbing the housings on the irons. Very high output engines us= e an additional dowl around each case bolt to prevent such movement.  =

 

A fixed rate of heating to an overheat suggests too small a radiator. A rather sudden overheat suggests trapped air in the system. If radiator size is marginal, a reduction in power will reduce coolant temps. = If the system has air in it, the temperature will remain high or go still high= er.

 

For oil cooling, the power setting has a closer connection to t= he temperature. So on a scalding hot day shifting at 9,400 RPM rather than 9,6= 00 RPM will bring the oil temps right down. I look for 180 water and 160 = oil, but 200 water and 200 oil won't hurt anything.

 

Lynn E. Hanover

 

 

 

Hi Neil, 

Yes,= I recall that you and Jim did use a thermostat plugs up with no problem. = ; I found burping the block (actually my cores)  necessary even without a thermostat.  It could be that I did it the same number of times I did without the thermostat and that was insufficient.  

I no= rmally would run the engine 5000 rpm for 30-40 seconds to burp the air.  Woul= d need to do this about 3 times before I got all the air out of my cores.&nbs= p; Because of my ignorance of all factors early on  when designing the plumbing for the cores, I had both inlet and outlet on the bottom – n= ot conducive to getting air out of the cores.  

So s= hould have one tube going in the bottom and the other out the top or both out the= top or at least a spigot on top to release the air as the tanks filled. &n= bsp;

You know – the old "should have, could have, would h= ave -  but didn't".  Now it's just simpler to burp the engine thre= e times on the infrequent occasions I drain the coolant.

 

 

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