X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTPS id 3342183 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:07:33 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.110; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:06:58 -0800 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:07:00 -0800 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oil too cool Thread-Index: AclZTBmK7BdfxEXkQamryi94wQYlKQAE3ZrA Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5969EXVMBX0035exc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5969EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ed, any comments on the extreme delta between my water 190F and my o= il at 110F? Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:42 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oil too c= ool Making progress, Jeff! Good work! When I first flew with high oil temps the water temps were elevated as well= . When I solved my oil temp problem, the coolant temps also dropped. So t= here is no question there is some "leakage" of heat between the oil and coo= lant system - not too surprising as both circulate in the block where all t= hat hot metal is. In the winter time, I ,like Mark, see coolant and oil temps at cruise down = in the lower 140F range - cooler than I would like. But, in the summer the= y are in the 160-170F range (both oil and water) IF I flew a lot in the cold/hot weather, I would probably put some time of = hand operated baffle in the oil duct to divert some of the air flow causing= its temp to rise and the coolant would tend to follow it up. I have tried using a thermostat on two occasions and almost fired my engine= on the ground. I am not certain but because I am plugs up, I think I may = trap some air around the thermostat stopping it from heating up and opening= - even though I drilled some 1/8" dia holes around the lip of the thermost= at to get rid of any air. In any case, I never tried flying with one becau= se the engine got too hot just on the ground. You engine is installed in t= he "normal" orientation so should be able to operate with a thermostat. Just remember the engine's cooling system was originally designed for relat= ive low average power being produced (as in touring down the free way at 25= 00 rpm) where as we are asking for "more power! Scotty!" from take off to l= evel off. High power =3D high heat with low air speed =3D low air mass flo= w =3D High temp problems on take off. If you optimize your engine cooling for cruise, it's likely you will have a= cooling deficit during the take off phase. If you optimize if for take of= f then you will likely have more drag at cruise than necessarily. While, I am not advocating it, I have accepted the cooling deficit during t= ake off in order to have my "high speed" aircraft have minimum cooling dra= g at higher speeds. I typically will hit 220F with the coolant and 200F wi= th the oil for the 2-3 minutes it takes me to get up to a comfortable altit= ude and power back a bit, once the airspeed hits 120 mph IAS then my coolin= g deficit is overtaken and all it good. At 8000 ft MSL my max possible power (WOT) and rich air/fuel mixture will p= ush my coolant and oil temps right up between 195 and 200F. So if I had an= y less cooling capacity (or any more power), I would face a cooling problem= , but as it is I am satisfied that my system is very close to "optimum" at = cruise. Sounds to me like you are zeroing in on what needs to be done. Enjoy your success!! Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ________________________________ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:40 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oil too c= ool Mark, I'm not sure what the cruise temps are as we have been flying short, tight = circuits only. I think cruise temperatures need to be determined before doi= ng too much else, though re-installing the thermostat may happen. What is the relationship between the water and oil temp? I guess you have s= tock Mazda thermostat 195F? Most of the rotary world has cheek radiators up front, with the oil cooler = going in whatever space is left. My oil cooler is up front on top of the PS= RU with inlets/outlets on both ends and the water radiator (19x5.5x5.5) is = below/behind the oil pan ... two independent systems one working too well t= he other not well enough ... see attached photo. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:53 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oil too c= ool Jeff, Climb out temps are of concern because they are the worst-case scenario, bu= t they are also short-lived. What are your oil & water temps in cruise? M= ine were good during the summer months, but now that it colder weather is h= ere, they have dropped into the 130* range, which is much too cool. Saturd= ay I installed a thermostat and then flew it. Temps in cruise were 195* wa= ter, 193* oil. I'll wait to see what happens when it starts warming up nex= t spring, but for now, the thermostat stays in. I did notice that with the= thermostat installed, coolant pressure went up. Makes sense as I now have= a significant flow-restrictor in the system. I would prefer to control temps with cowl flaps, as that would result in le= ss drag, but I'm still designing that system. Mark S. On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Jeff Whaley > wrote: With thermostat removed, bypass plugged, new accessory belts and alternator= pulley installed, we retested the new rotary installation. On first climb out water temperature reached only 195F, compared to 230F on= very first flight a week ago. With the water temperature okay we did 2 tou= ch and goes then shut everything down and checked under the cowl ... no bro= ken belts, no leaks that's a relief. On the subsequent climb outs the water temp was about 185F; on approach the= water cooled to 150F. I guess with the approach momentum you spend less ti= me at full throttle on a touch and go. Some other numbers of interest, 6300= rpm, 1100 fpm, outside air temp 30F, oil temp 110F. So I would say that the water cooling system is still not good enough (at 8= 0F that 195 could go to 245F) on the other hand my oil is too cool. For present winter operations I'm wondering ... put the thermostat back in,= which may help the oil ... I don't like the cooling to 150F on approach, o= r should I keep the systems separate? Plug the oil cooler air intakes or ou= tlets? Or should we first fly at cruise speeds for 10-15 minutes to see how= things stabilize? Jeff Whaley (I call it an airplane now) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED132DC5969EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks Ed, any comments on the extreme delta between my wate= r 190F and my oil at 110F?

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anders= on
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:42 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oi= l too cool

 

Making progress, Jeff!  Good work!

 

When I first flew with high oil temps the water temps were elev= ated as well.  When I solved my oil temp problem, the coolant temps also dropped.  So there is no question there is some “leakage” = of heat between the oil and coolant system – not too surprising as both circulate in = the block where all that hot metal is.

 

In the winter time, I ,like Mark, see coolant and oil temps at cruise down in the lower 140F range – cooler than I would like. = But, in the summer they are in the 160-170F range (both oil and water)

IF I flew a lot in the cold/hot weather, I would probably put s= ome time of hand operated baffle in the oil duct to divert some of the air flow causing its temp to rise and the coolant would tend to follow it up.

 

I have tried using a thermostat on two occasions and almost fir= ed my engine on the ground.  I am not certain but because I am plugs up, = I think I may trap some air around the thermostat stopping it from heating up= and opening – even though I drilled some 1/8” dia holes around the = lip of the thermostat to get rid of any air.  In any case, I never tried flying w= ith one because the engine got too hot just on the ground.  You engine is = installed in the “normal” orientation so should be able to operate with a= thermostat.

 

Just remember the engine’s cooling system was originally = designed for relative low average power being produced (as in touring down the free = way at 2500 rpm) where as we are asking for “more power! Scotty!” f= rom take off to level off.  High power =3D high heat with low air speed =3D low air ma= ss flow =3D High temp problems on take off.

 

If you optimize your engine cooling for cruise, it’s like= ly you will have a cooling deficit during the take off phase.  If you optimiz= e if for take off then you will likely have more drag at cruise than necessarily= .

 

While, I am not advocating it, I have accepted the cooling defi= cit during take off  in order to have my “high speed” aircraft= have minimum cooling drag at higher speeds.  I typically will hit 220F with the coo= lant and 200F with the oil for the 2-3 minutes it takes me to get up to a comfortable altitude and power back a bit, once the airspeed hits 120 mph I= AS then my cooling deficit is overtaken and all it good.

At 8000 ft MSL my max possible power (WOT) and rich air/fuel mixture will push my coolant and oil temps right up between 195 and 200F.&n= bsp; So if I had any less cooling capacity (or any more power), I would face a cooling problem, but as it is I am satisfied that my system is very close t= o “optimum” at cruise.

 

Sounds to me like you are zeroing in on what needs to be done. 

 

Enjoy your success!!

 

Ed

 

 

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.c= om

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW<= /o:p>

http://www.d= mack.net/mazda/index.html

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Jeff Whal= ey
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:40 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oi= l too cool

 

Mark,

I’m not sure what the cruise temps are as we have been= flying short, tight circuits only. I think cruise temperatures need to be determin= ed before doing too much else, though re-installing the thermostat may happen.=

What is the relationship between the water and oil temp? I g= uess you have stock Mazda thermostat 195F?

Most of the rotary world has cheek radiators up front, with = the oil cooler going in whatever space is left. My oil cooler is up front on to= p of the PSRU with inlets/outlets on both ends and the water radiator (19x5.5x5.= 5) is below/behind the oil pan … two independent systems one working too= well the other not well enough … see attached photo.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Stei= tle
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:53 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Update ... Three more flights, water ok, oi= l too cool

 

Jeff,

 

Climb out temps are of concern because they are the worst-case scenario, but they are also short-lived.  What are your oil & water temps in cruise?  Mine were good during= the summer months, but now that it colder weather is here, they = have dropped into the 130* range, which is much too cool.  Saturday I insta= lled a thermostat and then flew it.  Temps in cruise were 195* water, = 193* oil.  I'll wait to see what happens when it starts warming up next spring, but for now, the thermostat stays in.  = I did notice that with the thermostat installed, coolant pressure went u= p.  Makes sense as I now have a significant flow-restrictor in the system.=

 

I would prefer to control temps with cowl flaps, = as that would result in less drag, but I'm still designing that system.&n= bsp;

 

Mark S.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:23 AM, Jeff Whaley <jwhaley@datacast.com> wrote:

With thermostat removed, = bypass plugged, new accessory belts and alternator pulley installed, we retested t= he new rotary installation.

On first climb out water temperature reached only 195F, compared to 230F on very first flight a week ago. With the water temperature okay we did 2 touch and goes then shut everything down and checked under the cowl … no broken belts, no leak= s that's a relief.

On the subsequent climb o= uts the water temp was about 185F; on approach the water cooled to 150F. I gues= s with the approach momentum you spend less time at full throttle on a touch = and go. Some other numbers of interest, 6300 rpm, 1100 fpm, outside air temp 30= F, oil temp 110F.

 <= /p>

So I would say that the w= ater cooling system is still not good enough (at 80F that 195 could go to 245F) = on the other hand my oil is too cool.

For present winter operat= ions I'm wondering … put the thermostat back in, which may help the oil &#= 8230; I don't like the cooling to 150F on approach, or should I keep the systems separate= ? Plug the oil cooler air intakes or outlets? Or should we first fly at cruis= e speeds for 10-15 minutes to see how things stabilize?

Jeff Whaley

(I call it an airplane no= w)

 <= /p>

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signatur= e database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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