X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com ([205.188.139.136] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.10) with ESMTP id 3327724 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:05:35 -0500 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.cbc.339f31c3 (37540) for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 19:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-mb02.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.6) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB021-5c474935cd4637f; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:05:31 -0500 Received: from WEBMAIL-MY32 (webmail-my32.sim.aol.com [64.12.109.90]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v121_r4.6) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA015-5c474935cd4637f; Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:05:26 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Hose and Expansion Tank ... was Hose Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:05:26 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 66.253.96.220 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB22F1FA773E4A_1064_1A12_WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 39997-STANDARD Received: from 66.253.96.220 by WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com (64.12.109.90) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Tue, 02 Dec 2008 19:05:26 -0500 Message-Id: <8CB22F1FA6DB4F6-1064-CF6@WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB22F1FA773E4A_1064_1A12_WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Jeff, Many systems with restricted height run a bleed hose from the highest point=20= in the system to the bottom of the expansion tank. Usually a restrictor is u= sed, about .030-.060 inches. any bypass isn't sagnifigant, but air will leav= e the system that way.=C2=A0 Bill Jepson=C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:16 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hose and Expansion Tank ... was Hose If there is any doubt about the hose I=E2=80=99ll remove it =E2=80=A6 I woul= d never have guessed how that expansion tank is working with this setup. Originally I wanted the tank to be the highest point in the system and be co= nnected to the inlet side of the pump where pressures are lower and it would= make an ideal filling point for entire system; however, there isn=E2=80=99t= enough height under the cowl to mount it above the water pump outlet. During first flight the pressure got pegged to >20 psi > cap pressure =E2= =80=A6 I removed that cap and put back the old one at 16 psi =E2=80=A6 now i= f the system is pressurized through the snifter valve it is regulated at 16=20= psi by the cap, as I would expect. So I relieved the pressure to 10 psi and=20= ground-operated the engine; it pressurized and regulated itself back to 16 p= si from 130F water temp all the way up to 200F water temp =E2=80=A6 but what= is startling is that the tank is actually cool to the touch =E2=80=A6 the w= ater pump is hot, radiator and its hoses are hot =E2=80=A6 hot pressurized air is exiting the= engine through that hose and 1 cup of coolant but having very little temper= ature effect on either =E2=80=A6 I love it =E2=80=A6 I believe the system is= working perfectly and don=E2=80=99t see any reason to operate at pressure a= bove 16 psi. Jeff (Just waiting for the weekend and flight #2) =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:41 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Hose was Re: First Flight, short and hot =C2=A0 Jeff, you might check with Tracy Crook.=C2=A0 Way back when, he attempted to= use some clear plastic/nylon cored reinforced hose for his coolant system f= or the same reason (I think) =E2=80=93 so you could see what was going on.= =C2=A0 As best I recall, it was not up to the task due to heat and pressure=20= =E2=80=93 but these were the main line hoses and not just to the header tank= .=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 I can not recall the type =E2=80=93 but think he got them at the local hardw= are store. =C2=A0 Ed =C2=A0 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Jeff Whaley Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:03 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First=20 Flight, short and hot =C2=A0 Thanks Kelly, I copied (Bill Eslick=E2=80=99s) installation (seen at Round-u= p) and the see-through aspect of that hose was a major selling point; it=E2= =80=99s easy to see whether there=E2=80=99s air or fluid in the line, which=20= is very helpful =E2=80=A6 ideally there should be fluid in the line and abou= t 1 cup in the expansion tank; I suppose removing the cap would provide same= information =E2=80=A6 but the tank has to be de-pressurized, cap removed an= d re-pressurized before flight. Bill any comments on durability of that hose? Jeff=20 =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Kelly Troyer Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] First Flight, short and hot =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Jeff, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 You might keep an eye on the plastic hose goinng to the b= ottom of your expansion tank..........This particular hose is not durable and under the hi= gh heat under the cowl (perhaps not during your Canadian winter) might have a short service life..........Project looks great and am looking forward to=20= all further flight test info.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 =C2=A0 -------------- Original message from Jeff Whaley : ---= -----------=20 Thanks to you all for the congratulatory comments =E2=80=A6 attached is a pi= cture of expansion tank and preflig ht roll-out =E2=80=A6 the orange line is fuel return; the brass is pressure=20= gauge pickup and snifter valve installation. After reading Eds=E2=80=99 email I now know why the water temperature was so= high. =C2=A0I installed a thermostat with the onset of cold weather, but I=20= couldn=E2=80=99t use the original Mazda thermostat because my temperature bu= lb protrudes across the bypass hole. =C2=A0Originally the bypass hole was pl= ugged and there was no thermostat; however, I removed the bypass plug and us= ed a non-Mazda thermostat !! =E2=80=A6 so that=E2=80=99s why the underside o= f the Mazda thermostat is so long! Thanks Ed for setting me straight and bas= ed on your comment about 20% loss of efficiency, I could possibly see 230F x= 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight =E2=80=A6 that would be great! For now= the thermostat is gone and bypass is re-plugged. Closer examination of the belt and rubber deposits on underside of top cowli= ng suggests the belt got jammed in the pulley and cut by friction. I tried again last night to remove the alternator pulley nut =E2=80=A6 what= =E2=80=99s the secret? Left-hand thread? Loctite or what? It=E2=80=99s so ti= ght I=E2=80=99m afraid of damaging something trying to get it off. Jeff =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ----------MB_8CB22F1FA773E4A_1064_1A12_WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Jeff,
Many systems with restricted height run a bleed hose from the highest point=20= in the system to the bottom of the expansion tank. Usually a restrictor is u= sed, about .030-.060 inches. any bypass isn't sagnifigant, but air will leav= e the system that way. 
Bill Jepson 
If there is any doubt about the hose I=E2= =80=99ll remove it =E2=80=A6 I would never have guessed how that expansion t= ank is working with this setup.
Originally I wanted the tank to=3D2 0be the highest point in the system and be connected to the inlet side of th= e pump where pressures are lower and it would make an ideal filling point fo= r entire system; however, there isn=E2=80=99t enough height under the cowl t= o mount it above the water pump outlet.
During first flight the pressure got pegged=20= to >20 psi > cap pressure =E2=80=A6 I removed that cap and put back th= e old one at 16 psi =E2=80=A6 now if the system is pressurized through the s= nifter valve it is regulated at 16 psi by the cap, as I would expect. So I r= elieved the pressure to 10 psi and ground-operated the engine; it pressurize= d and regulated itself back to 16 psi from 130F water temp all the way up to= 200F water temp =E2=80=A6 but what is startling is that the tank is actuall= y cool to the touch =E2=80=A6 the water pump is hot, radiator and its hoses=20= are hot =E2=80=A6 hot pressurized air is exiting the engine through that hos= e and 1 cup of coolant but having very little temperature effect on either=20= =E2=80=A6 I love it =E2=80=A6 I believe the system is working perfectly and=20= don=E2=80=99t see any reason to operate at pressure above 16 psi.
Jeff
(Just waiting for the weekend and flight #2 )
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:41 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Hose was Re: First Flight, short and hot<= /div>
 
Jeff, you might check with Tracy Crook.  Way= back when, he attempted to use some clear plastic/nylon cored reinforced ho= se for his coolant system for the same reason (I think) =E2=80=93 so you cou= ld see what was going on.  As best I recall, it was not up to the task=20= due to heat and pressure =E2=80=93 but these were the main line hoses and no= t just to the header tank. 
 
I can not recall the type =E2=80=93 but think h= e got them at the local hardware store.
 
Ed
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Jeff Whaley
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:03 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: First Flight, short and hot
 
Thanks Kelly, I copied (Bill Eslick=E2=80= =99s) installation (seen at Round-up) and the see-through aspect of that hos= e was a major selling point; it=E2=80=99s easy to see whether there=E2=80= =99s air or fluid in the line, which is very helpful =E2=80=A6 ideally there= should be fluid in the line and about 1 cup in the expansion tank; I suppos= e removing the cap would provide same information =E2=80=A6 but the tank has= to be de-pressurized, cap removed and re-pressurized before flight.<= /div>
Bill any comments on durability of that hose= ?
Jeff
0A
 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Kelly Troyer
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:24 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] First Flight, short and hot
 
   Jeff,
    You might keep an eye on the plast= ic hose goinng to the bottom of your
expansion tank..........This particular hose is not d= urable and under the high
heat under the cowl (perhaps not during your Canadian= winter) might have
a short service life..........Project looks great and= am looking forward to all
further flight test info..........
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
 
-------------- Original= message from Jeff Whaley <jwhale= y@datacast.com>: --------------
Thanks to you all for the congratulatory com= ments =E2=80=A6 attached is a picture of expansion tank and preflight roll-o= ut =E2=80=A6 the orange line is fuel return; the brass is pressure gauge pic= kup and snifter valve installation.
After reading Eds=E2=80=99 email I now know=20= why the water temperature was so high.  I installed a thermostat with t= he onset of cold weather, but I couldn=E2=80=99t use the original Mazda ther= mostat because my temperature bulb protrudes across the bypass hole.  O= riginally the bypass hole was plugged and there was no thermostat; however,=20= I removed the bypass plug and used a non-Mazda thermostat !! =E2=80=A6 so th= at=E2=80=99s why the underside of the Mazda thermostat is so long! Thanks Ed= for setting m e straight and based on your comment about 20% loss of efficiency, I could p= ossibly see 230F x 0.8 or as low as 184F on next flight =E2=80=A6 that would= be great! For now the thermostat is gone and bypass is re-plugged.
Closer examination of the belt and rubber de= posits on underside of top cowling suggests the belt got jammed in the pulle= y and cut by friction.
I tried again last night to remove the alter= nator pulley nut =E2=80=A6 what=E2=80=99s the secret? Left-hand thread? Loct= ite or what? It=E2=80=99s so tight I=E2=80=99m afraid of damaging something=20= trying to get it off.
Jeff
 
 

Tis the season to save your money! Get the new AOL Holid= ay Toolbar for money saving offers and gift ideas.
----------MB_8CB22F1FA773E4A_1064_1A12_WEBMAIL-MY32.sysops.aol.com--