X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.169] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2980306 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 03:42:55 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.200.169; envelope-from=bartrim@gmail.com Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so1975326wfg.25 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:42:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:from:to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-type:x-priority:x-msmail-priority :x-mailer:in-reply-to:x-mimeole:importance; bh=OL1vkqR/2Y19GNYqRrgZyHDGK/8jrnVdwvmT5HpWDOo=; b=UcPSMra+dcVMyWrRKBTZRBbgdeCAL/FqNa2IKDTmF0CZi5A/LbFf197a0gBosU1JoL Fmo2eIJgcaHjkW46JGPXphzFkDKqfaAiug5TayuTk4bqxbb2RN5FIYe1IT0/VYH5V0sG 4vDOiYRu46w3XMj0SXvcGv9Zx1NMNI4+vWIV0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :x-priority:x-msmail-priority:x-mailer:in-reply-to:x-mimeole :importance; b=i5kor+vyCkUBmcds6sBqDSJ5pJ/TDjZk+R2o0TsaY5ODd+ch8y91rQr0YfrRu2O5iO 4MhebPn9+ObqqJhW8pKUNGJgxTso4TsjflNVJGJW9bLjwF08J6JVwfU24YpWxCWPIR6K 5b5ixDb2invu5f3ZBp3Uxba9Nxzpyk+vI4DQo= Received: by 10.142.47.6 with SMTP id u6mr3290423wfu.91.1214206935616; Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: Received: from Endurance ( [154.5.211.165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 24sm8894158wfc.3.2008.06.23.00.42.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Todd Bartrim" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Another Turbo Bites the dust Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 00:41:56 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8D4C9.F0614280" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8D4C9.F0614280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Doh! Sorry, brain fart. Wasn’t thinking strait, of coarse it wouldn’t detect anything as long as the O2 content doesn’t change. Too bad as an early warning of oil consumption would be nice. But there’s always the stock low oil level indicator in the pan. Todd Bartrim (Drywall dust must be affecting my brain) -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 6:37 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another Turbo Bites the dust Hi Todd, I did look at the mixture display and as far as I can tell it was unaffected by the smoke, which makes sense. The sensor detects the presence of O2, and that should not change significantly with the burning of a little bit of oil. Dave Leonard On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Todd Bartrim < bartrim@gmail.com > wrote: Hi Dave; When you had all the smoke, did you happen to notice what it did to your mixture display from the O2 sensor? Since mine is located just downstream from the turbo I'm thinking that the oil burning in the exhaust would make it go full scale rich. This would be an indicator if one happened to catch it in time. On one of my initial flights, I had an oil pressure switch blow out oil directly onto the exhaust, downstream of the O2 sensor. I had no indications of it at all in the cockpit. The only reason I knew about it was I had another RV flying chase with me. He said it looked exactly like an air show smoke system. After I was told about it, I shut down the engine, set up glide back to the runway and slowed down to stop the prop (so there would still be oil incase I needed to restart to make the runway). Once I had slowed down, I could smell the smoke in the cockpit. So an unexplained full rich mixture reading could be telling us something we need to pay attention too. Todd Bartrim -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net ]On Behalf Of David Leonard Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:40 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another Turbo Bites the dust Good point about the oil feed Ed. In fact, when my first turbo went, the folks on the ground saw all that smoke and reported that we were on fire... we were not on fire, but there was plenty of oil both inside the exhaust on spilling onto the outside of it. So after that I installed an electric switch that I can use to cutoff oil flow to the turbo from inside the cockpit. Interesting, with this failure there was no smoke or oil leakage (yet), but I will flip the switch for the flight home and cut off the oil supply. Thanks for the reminder! -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Ed Anderson < eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote: In my opinion, one of the things that we tend to not pay sufficient attention to is the extent of the demand we are putting on turbos. Without getting into the specifics of boost ratios vs ambient pressure, suffice it to say that a turbo compressor has to work considerably harder at altitude to maintain the same pressure ratio in the manifold. The ambient air pressure is of course less at 8000 MSL therefore density less as well and the turbo simply has to turn faster to create the same amount of boost pressure out of the less dense air. The only way the turbo can do that is to turn faster at altitude. So you have that hot rotary exhaust pushing those small turbine blades, faster and faster. As we have discovered, the stock RX-7 turbo succumbs quickly to those stresses (simply not designed for them). Even with the TO4 compressor mod, which clearly helps by reducing the turbine rpm needed to produce X boost, the stock turbine and bearing just do not appear up to the stress for long duration – although 130 hours is better than I thought the stock bearings would do. A precaution I would take before flying back with the turbo that condition is to disconnect and plug the oil line to the turbo. Should the bearing have taken a worst beating 0r continues to deteriorate, you would not want to be dumping that precious engine oil into the exhaust – although there should be plenty of smoke to tell you when that condition occurred – if there is anybody around in West Texas to let you know {:>). So I would disconnect and plug the oil line and coolant line to the turbo – just to make certain no leaks occurred. Just my 0.02. Glad, nothing more happened to the engine or you, Dave. Ed. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net ] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another Turbo Bites the dust It's amazing how fast 130 hrs goes when you are having fun.:-) I took off the exhaust today and too a look. One of the blades on the turbine wheel is gone, but the axle seems otherwise intact, though it may be off kilter and that is what is causing the resistance when I try to turn it. So I am to sure if the problem was primarily the bearing, or overheat, or overspeed. According to my calculations, turbine speed should have been well within the green area. (way down around 60k RPM - near the bottom of the chart.) One difference with this fligh... I usually run well lean of peak, but this particular leg I was running a little late so I decided to push it up a bit by running a best power setting. I figured I was OK because I was high enough that I was only showing 21" MAP. But the failure happened in descent when I kept best power as I came lower and the engine RPM came up to about 6300 (more exhaust available). Combination of higher than normal EGT's and 'you number is up, turbo'??? Dave Leonard Dave, I follow your threads carefully as you have put so much into the Turbo installation, I don't know anyone who has done more but I'm sure there are, it's just we/I am not aware of them. From what your saying, I think your right on the money - heat is the killer (in this case). I personally would like you to try something remote as per suggestions by others. I think Paul's idea is sound, but may be still to close to the heat for my liking. George (down under) __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3206 (20080621) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com -- David Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C8D4C9.F0614280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Do= h! Sorry, brain fart. Wasn=92t thinking strait, of coarse it wouldn=92t = detect anything as long as the O2 content doesn=92t change. Too bad as an early = warning of oil consumption would be nice. But there=92s always the stock low oil = level indicator in the pan.

 

Todd Bartrim=A0 =A0 (Drywall dust must be affecting my brain)

<= span class=3DEmailStyle18> 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Sunday, June 22, = 2008 6:37 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another Turbo Bites the dust

 

Hi = Todd,<= /p>

 <= /p>

I = did look at the mixture display and as far as I can tell it was unaffected by the = smoke, which makes sense.  The sensor detects the presence of O2, and that = should not change significantly with the burning of a little bit of = oil.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Dave Leonard<= /p>

On = Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Todd Bartrim <bartrim@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Dave;<= /p>

   = ;         When you had all the smoke, did you happen to notice what it did to your mixture display from the O2 sensor? Since mine is located just = downstream from the turbo I'm thinking that the oil burning in the exhaust would make it = go full scale rich. This would be an indicator if one happened to catch it = in time. On one of my initial flights, I had an oil pressure switch blow = out oil directly onto the exhaust, downstream of the O2 sensor. I had no = indications of it at all in the cockpit. The only reason I knew about it was I had = another RV flying chase with me. He said it looked exactly like an air show smoke = system. After I was told about it, I shut down the engine, set up glide back to = the runway and slowed down to stop the prop (so there would still be oil = incase I needed to restart to make the runway). Once I had slowed down, I could = smell the smoke in the cockpit.<= /p>

   = ;         So an unexplained full rich mixture reading could be telling us = something we need to pay attention too.<= /p>

 <= /p>

Todd = Bartrim

 <= /p>

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On Behalf Of David Leonard
Sent: Saturday, June 21, = 2008 6:40 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Another Turbo Bites the dust

 <= /p>

Good point about the oil feed Ed. In fact, when my first = turbo went, the folks on the ground saw all that smoke and reported that we = were on fire... we were not on fire, but there was plenty of oil both inside the = exhaust on spilling onto the outside of it. 

So after that I installed an electric switch that I can use to cutoff = oil flow to the turbo from inside the cockpit.   Interesting, with this failure there was no smoke or oil leakage (yet), but I will flip the = switch for the flight home and cut off the oil supply.

Thanks for the reminder!

--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net
http://RotaryRoster.net<= /p>

On = Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> = wrote:<= /p>

In my opinion, one = of the things that we tend to not pay sufficient attention to is the extent of the = demand we are putting on turbos.  Without getting into the specifics of boost = ratios vs ambient pressure, suffice it to say that a turbo compressor has to = work considerably harder at altitude to maintain the same pressure ratio in = the manifold.

 <= /p>

  The = ambient air pressure is of course less at 8000 MSL therefore density less as well = and the turbo simply has to turn faster to create the same amount of boost = pressure out of the less dense air.  The only way the turbo can do that is to = turn faster at altitude.  So you have that hot rotary exhaust pushing = those small turbine blades, faster and faster.<= /p>

 <= /p>

  As we = have discovered, the stock RX-7 turbo succumbs quickly to those stresses = (simply not designed for them).  Even with the TO4 compressor mod, which = clearly helps by reducing the turbine rpm needed to produce X boost, the stock turbine = and bearing just do not appear up to the stress for long duration =96 = although 130 hours is better than I thought the stock bearings would = do.<= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

A precaution I = would take before flying back with the turbo that condition is to disconnect and = plug the oil line to the turbo.  Should the bearing have taken a worst = beating 0r continues to deteriorate, you would not want to be dumping that precious = engine oil into the exhaust =96 although there should be plenty of smoke to = tell you when that condition occurred =96 if there is anybody around in West = Texas to let you know {:>).  So I would disconnect and plug the oil line and = coolant line to the turbo =96 just to make certain no leaks occurred.  = <= /p>

 <= /p>

Just my = 0.02.  Glad, nothing more happened to the engine or you, Dave.  = <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

Ed.= <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered

Matthews, NC<= /p>

eanderson@carolina.rr.com<= /p>

http://www.andersonee.com<= /p>

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/con= figs.htm#N494BW<= /p>

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html<= /p>

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George = Lendich
Sent: Saturday, June 21, = 2008 6:24 PM<= /p>


To: Rotary motors in = aircraft<= /p>

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Another Turbo Bites the = dust<= /p>

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

It's amazing how fast 130 hrs = goes when you are having fun.:-) 

I took off the exhaust today and too a look.  One of the blades on = the turbine wheel is gone, but the axle seems otherwise intact, though it = may be off kilter and that is what is causing the resistance when I try to turn it.  So I am to sure if the problem was primarily the bearing, or overheat, or overspeed.  According to my calculations, turbine = speed should have been well within the green area. (way down around 60k RPM - = near the bottom of the chart.)

One difference with this fligh...  I usually run well lean of peak, = but this particular leg I was running a little late so I decided to push it = up a bit by running a best power setting.  I figured I was OK because I = was high enough that I was only showing 21" MAP.  But the failure happened in descent when I kept best power as I came lower and the = engine RPM came up to about 6300 (more exhaust available).

Combination of higher than normal EGT's and 'you number is up, = turbo'???

Dave Leonard

Dave,<= /p>

I follow your = threads carefully as you have put so much into the Turbo installation, I don't = know anyone who has done more but I'm sure there are, it's just we/I am not = aware of them. From what your saying, I think your right on the money - heat = is the killer (in this case).

 <= /p>

I personally = would like you to try something remote as per suggestions by others. I think Paul's = idea is sound, but may be still to close to the heat for my = liking.<= /p>

George (dow= n under)<= /p>

 <= /p>



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3206 (20080621) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com<= /p>

 




--
David Leonard

Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY
http://N4VY.RotaryRoster.net http://RotaryRoster.net = <= /p>

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