X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.32] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2977629 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:45:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.32; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.43]) by QMTA03.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gUQM1Z0020vyq2s5300l00; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:44:47 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id gUkm1Z0070dkeQQ3RUkmvs; Sat, 21 Jun 2008 04:44:47 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=IAaExbHbfTUA:10 a=dqVQZ62xJ9AA:10 a=2vFbd-1ndKtMxtcBEO8A:9 a=DXsCmkAFNq7_UCkWUlsA:7 a=sTbssh-pKwyhspDE2rOP77k-SqUA:4 a=XCwpvLtFMdsA:10 a=QMgMR9M9BAsA:10 a=6Iijg2PxBQcjcw2hTlIA:9 a=WVBgZ7RPTh4s7lkOsHgA:7 a=wdgrADbUEo7k34yZlHJJ5LbOGccA:4 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <1DD50EB862224A4D90352B20FEB55417@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and development progress Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:47:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01AF_01C8D31F.4D155630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01AF_01C8D31F.4D155630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeez, you've got me baffled. What equates to a valve in a rotary? The = ports? The seals? Could a seal move around enough to cause an = inconsistency? I agree with you, that this is a case for detective = Tracy, and his minions.......(:-) Greg Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:21 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics and = development progress Well, I'm pretty sure it's not a burnt valve. :-) In the early tuning stages I was all over the engine with starting = fluid, soapy water, you name it, looking for vacuum leaks. Never found a = thing. Timing is set per Tracy's manual. Odd thing is the lack of consistency. Most of the time it runs great. = I think if there was a vacuum leak it would be more consistent. Acts to me like there is something just a little off in the tuning. = Get everything in just the right (wrong) condition and it sets up a = resonance. Most of the time this doesnt happen. Changing mixture kills = the resonance and its fine after that. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress I hate to say it Mike, but in a recip, that's a sure sign of a burnt = valve or a major vacuum leak. Maybe in this case, there's a leak in = your intake? A bad gasket or loose bolt could do it. Timing is a = possibility for sure. Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking basics = and development progress I too still have intermittent surging issues that havent been = fully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. Always in the 2000 - 3000 = RPM range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and back off the throttle. = In my case the A/F reading is useless. The engine surges rhythmically at = about a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several hundred, MAP varying from = high to low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its moving around too = much), and the A/F bouncing back and forth from the rich stop to the = lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a little = disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm taxiing = away from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is = watching). For a while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing = line (Dave Leonard's suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll = need to get this figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if = it happens on short final. I occasionally have a pretty good backfire at the secondary = staging point. The operational solution seems to be to not linger in the = area - just advance the throttle or retard it right on through and it = seems to be OK. Advancing the throttle too slowly almost guarantees a = big pop! I'm told it's particularly impressive after dark! I havent worked on the tuning in months while I've been tweaking = other little issues in prep for my DAR inspection. Just about ready to = get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less figured out = eventually. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:06 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The SAGA continues; More checking = basics and development progress Chris,=20 As you've probably read from the archives surging is usually = caused by an overly lean air-fuel ratio. What is your A/F reading = during the surging? =20 Mark S. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Christopher Barber = wrote: Well, to continue the saga, I have not run the new 13b much = since I got it running a few weeks ago due to the EM2 not showing oil = pressure as it should. It was giving me erratic readings like -1, -3 = etc. I hand propped the engine before I ran it and oil pumped through = the system fine....much onto the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for = certainty ;-). Also, during my short runs everything heated up in the = oil system evenly and the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with = coolant temp. BUT, since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue = or an actual oil system problem I was very cautious about my few short = engine runs. Well, today while dreading the idea of dropping my pan, I = happened across an extra oil pressure sender (still in the package) I = happened to have. I had seen it laying around for a while, but didn't = give it much thought until I was thinking about dropping the pan. Low = and behold, The problem was the sender. I am getting good pressure = reading now, along with coolant and oil temp. Yeah. I am surprised at = the temps as they seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + = degree Houston weather. I am able to start the engine, shut it down and restart it = (something I was not able to do with the old engine). It is somewhat = difficult, but seems to be getting easier as I continue to tweak things = (ie timing). I am trying to do the various tuning via Tracy's manual. = To be honest a lot of the information in the manual is seemingly = abstract until I actually get to the step and/or problem. So, tonight, = I got it to run, and it seems to run better, but...... I am having a surging problem. It seems intermittent, but it = just may be I have not been setting the throttle quite the same way as I = get use to it all. Also, I have had the coil C/B pop on me several = times now....it seems as if this is when the engine is near or at idle. = I have not had a chance to look into this as of yet. Also, I have = gotten a number of horrendously loud/powerful backfires. Not sure what = changes as the engine may have run fine. It backfires when attempting = to start. I wait a few minutes and it may then start. Gee, isn't = inconsistent crap fun I just did a search of the archives on the surging issue, but = have just started reading the 105 post on the topic. Seems our own Mr. = Slade had the same problem back in the day . Well, it is the middle of my work week and I gotta turn in = soon, but I wanted to share that it seems as if actual progress is being = made (hmmmm, wonder what will screw this positive statement up) as = the Saga continues. All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_01AF_01C8D31F.4D155630 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeez, you've got me baffled.  What equates = to a valve=20 in a rotary?  The ports?  The seals?  Could a seal move = around=20 enough to cause an inconsistency?  I agree with you, that this is a = case=20 for detective Tracy, and his minions.......(:-)
Greg
Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = Wills
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 9:21 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

Well, I'm pretty sure it's not a = burnt valve.=20 :-)
 
In the early tuning stages I was all = over the=20 engine with starting fluid, soapy water, you name it, looking for = vacuum=20 leaks. Never found a thing. Timing is set per Tracy's = manual.
 
Odd thing is the lack of consistency. = Most of the=20 time it runs great. I think if there was a vacuum leak it would be = more=20 consistent.
 
Acts to me like there is something = just a little=20 off in the tuning. Get everything in just the right = (wrong) condition and=20 it sets up a resonance. Most of the time this doesnt = happen. Changing=20 mixture kills the resonance and its fine after that.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg=20 Ward
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 8:56=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: The = SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

I hate to say it Mike, but in a recip, = that's a sure=20 sign of a burnt valve or a major vacuum leak.  Maybe in this = case,=20 there's a leak in your intake?  A bad gasket or loose bolt = could do=20 it.  Timing is a possibility for sure.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in Progress
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mike = Wills=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 = 8:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = The SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

I too still have intermittent = surging issues=20 that havent been fully conquered. Doesnt happen all the time. = Always in=20 the 2000 - 3000 RPM range. Usually happens when I'm taxiing and = back off=20 the throttle. In my case the A/F reading is useless. The engine = surges=20 rhythmically at about a 1Hz rate with RPMs varying several = hundred, MAP=20 varying from high to low (hard to pin down exact numbers - its = moving=20 around too much), and the A/F bouncing back and forth from the = rich stop=20 to the lean stop. Fiddling with mixture always stops it, but its a = little=20 disconcerting (and embarassing) when it happens (usually as I'm = taxiing=20 away from the crowd at the local EAA chapter while everyone is = watching).=20 For a while I thought adding some capacity to the MAP sensing line = (Dave=20 Leonard's suggestion) had cured it, but not entirely. I'll = need to=20 get this figured out before it flies. Could be a real problem if = it=20 happens on short final.
 
I occasionally have a pretty good = backfire at=20 the secondary staging point. The operational solution seems to be = to not=20 linger in the area - just advance the throttle or retard it right = on=20 through and it seems to be OK. Advancing the throttle too=20 slowly almost guarantees a big pop! I'm told it's = particularly=20 impressive after dark!
 
I havent worked on the tuning in = months while=20 I've been tweaking other little issues in prep for my DAR = inspection. Just=20 about ready to get back to it. I'm sure i'll get it more or less = figured=20 out eventually.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 20, = 2008 7:06=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = The SAGA=20 continues; More checking basics and development progress

Chris,

As you've probably read from the = archives=20 surging is usually caused by an overly lean air-fuel = ratio.  What=20 is your A/F reading during the surging? 

Mark = S.

On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:41 PM, = Christopher=20 Barber <CBarber@texasattorney.net&g= t;=20 wrote:
Well, to continue the saga, I = have not=20 run the new 13b much since I got it running a few weeks ago = due to the=20 EM2 not showing oil pressure as it should.  It was giving = me=20 erratic readings like -1, -3 etc.  I hand propped the = engine=20 before I ran it and oil pumped through the system fine....much = onto=20 the hangar floor...alas, the sacrifices for certainty = ;-).  Also,=20 during my short runs everything heated up in the oil system = evenly and=20 the oil temp stayed pretty much in line with coolant = temp.  BUT,=20 since I was not sure if this was a gage/sender issue or an = actual oil=20 system problem I was very cautious about my few short engine=20 runs.
 
Well, today while dreading = the idea of=20 dropping my pan, I happened across an extra oil pressure = sender (still=20 in the package) I happened to have.  I had seen it laying = around=20 for a while, but didn't give it much thought until I was = thinking=20 about dropping the pan. Low and behold, The problem was the=20 sender.  I am getting good pressure reading now, along = with=20 coolant and oil temp. Yeah.  I am surprised at the temps = as they=20 seem to be staying in check considering the 95 + degree = Houston=20 weather.
 
I am able to start the = engine, shut it=20 down and restart it (something I was not able to do with the = old=20 engine).  It is somewhat difficult, but seems to be = getting=20 easier as I continue to tweak things (ie timing).  I am = trying to=20 do the various tuning via Tracy's manual.  To be honest = a =20 lot of the information in the manual is seemingly abstract = until I=20 actually get to the step and/or problem.  So, tonight, I = got it=20 to run, and it seems to run better, but......
 
I am having a surging = problem.  It=20 seems intermittent, but it just may be I have not been setting = the=20 throttle quite the same way as I get use to it all.  = Also, I have=20 had the coil C/B pop on me several times now....it seems as if = this is=20 when the engine is near or at idle.  I have not had a = chance to=20 look into this as of yet.  Also, I have gotten a number = of=20 horrendously loud/powerful backfires.  Not sure what = changes as=20 the engine may have run fine.  It backfires when = attempting to=20 start.  I wait a few minutes and it may then start.  = Gee,=20 isn't inconsistent crap fun <g>
 
I just did a search of the = archives on=20 the surging issue, but have just started reading the 105 post = on the=20 topic.  Seems our own Mr. Slade had the same problem back = in the=20 day <g>.
 
Well, it is the middle of my = work week=20 and I gotta turn in soon, but I wanted to share that it seems = as if=20 actual progress is being made (hmmmm, wonder what will screw = this=20 positive statement up<g>) as the Saga = continues.
 
All the best,
 
Chris

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