X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [204.127.217.103] (HELO fmailhost01.isp.att.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2921798 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 14 May 2008 12:05:49 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.103; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from fwebmail16.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.116]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc03) with SMTP id <20080514160510H0300lck8ke>; Wed, 14 May 2008 16:05:10 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.116] Received: from [64.250.201.68] by fwebmail16.isp.att.net; Wed, 14 May 2008 16:05:09 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Renewable Aviation Fuel Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:05:09 +0000 Message-Id: <051420081605.6333.482B0DB3000B3155000018BD22218801869B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 10 2008) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6333_1210781109_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6333_1210781109_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well spoken Monty !!............... -- Kelly Troyer "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold -------------- Original message from "M Roberts" : -------------- Ernest....be not afraid! Rejoice! Sounds suspiciously like the Weizmann organism. see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biobutanol There is no way that any patent on this gaslight era technology is going to hold up to challenge. They may have bio engineered the bug to be more productive, and are patenting that. Otherwise this is something you could do in your back yard with your lawn clippings/sewage and the proper bug and enzymes. It's no different than making wine. Then you just use fractional distillation to get the fuel out. It may be possible to separate the constituents with a molecular sieve which would be even better. The aviation fuel market is the perfect place to start something like this, because it is small (relatively) and the oil companies don't really want to be bothered with it. 100LL is going to go away soon and something must take it's place. If it costs half as much as 100LL I would gladly buy it. Since the states don't make much revenue from Aviation Fuel, they won't perceive the threat. That will allow companies in this market to move forward and eventually achieve economies of scale. Then they can start to move into the automotive fuel market and the cat is out of the bag. Expecting the government and the oil companies to solve this problem is asking two foxes to guard the henhouse. I watched the hearings with the oil companies and congress on seaspan. If you missed it, my executive summary is as follows: Government : We make more money per gallon than anybody. We won't let you drill or build a new refinery. We want the rest of your profits. We're here to help....honest we are, poor people, evil capitalist pig, fairness, etc. (wink, wink, thanks for the campaign contribution). Oil Companies: We're making a killing, but you won't let us drill to bring the cost down to the consumer, or spend billions on new refineries. Woe is us, Woe is us. People should conserve. (wink wink, keep up the good work). Lots of noise and smoke........nothing changes. We continue to play the fool in this game. There are various algae and bacteria that can produce octane, and diesel (lipids) directly. There are currently many efforts at bio engineering them to be much more efficient. There are several companies in the commercialization stages of this effort, and third gen fuels on the way. 1 acre of soybeans can make about 20 barrels of bio-diesel (first gen), but it requires prime farm land and good water that should be used for food production. 1 acre of algae can produce 200 barrels of bio-diesel, and it can do it on a superfund site with municipal effluent (second gen). Third generation fuels are in the works. Bio-tech has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years. In addition the demand from China, India, Brazil, and the former Eastern Block is making it impossible for OPEC to drive the price down. That has always been the real secret weapon. There are many different ways to produce liquid fuels. Coal to liquids, Gas to Liquids, Oil shale, Biological and thermal processes. Every time somebody would start to do this, or if we tried to increase domestic oil production, OPEC would flood the market with cheap crude. Thereby preventing any competition and maintaining OPEC's monopoly. That power is now gone. Perhaps we made the conscious decision in the cold war to use up everybody else's oil while sitting on ours...makes sense to me. Then the Greenies emerged or were created. Regardless of what you or I personally think, bio based distributed energy is on the way, whether the powers that be want it or not. Just THINK!!! Al Gore could produce at least a couple of barrels a week from verbal sewage alone. Whether you are a greenie or not, or whether there is oil in the ground or not is beside the point. Companies, and countries can control something 2000 ft under ground. Grass clippings, sewage, and bacteria are not so easily controlled. Even if only half of our energy comes from these sources, it will force the price of conventional petroleum products down worldwide and end the monopoly of energy by the few. I'm sure the greenies will find something to hate about this too. They can jump up and down and scream all they want. It doesn't matter. You don't still believe the squished up dead dino juice fairytale do you?? Peace Monty --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6333_1210781109_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6333_1210781109_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_6333_1210781109_1 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
  Well spoken Monty !!...............
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold



 
-------------- Original message from "M Roberts" <montyr2157@alltel.net>: --------------

Ernest....be not afraid!
 
Rejoice!
 
Sounds suspiciously like the Weizmann organism.
 
 
There is no way that any patent on this gaslight era technology is going to hold up to challenge. They may have bio engineered the bug to be more productive, and are patenting that.
 
Otherwise this is something you could do in your back yard with your lawn clippings/sewage and the proper bug and enzymes. It's no different than making wine. Then you just use fractional distillation to get the fuel out. It may be possible to separate the constituents  with a molecular sieve which would be even better.
 
The aviation fuel market is the perfect place to start something like this, because it is small (relatively) and the oil companies don't really want to be bothered with it. 100LL is going to go away soon and something must take it's place. If it costs half as much as 100LL I would gladly buy it. Since the states don't make much revenue from Aviation Fuel, they won't perceive the threat. That will allow companies in this market to move forward and eventually achieve economies of scale. Then they can start to move into the automotive fuel market and the cat is out of the bag.
 
Expecting the government and the oil companies to solve this problem is asking two foxes to guard the henhouse.
 
I watched the hearings with the oil companies and congress on seaspan. If you missed it, my executive summary is as follows:
 
Government : We make more money per gallon than anybody. We won't let you drill or build a new refinery. We want the rest of your profits. We're here to help....honest we are, poor people, evil capitalist pig, fairness, etc. (wink, wink, thanks for the campaign contribution).
 
Oil Companies: We're making a killing, but you won't let us drill to bring the cost down to the consumer, or spend billions on new refineries. Woe is us, Woe is us. People should conserve. (wink wink, keep up the good work).
 
Lots of noise and smoke........nothing changes.
 
We continue to play the fool in this game.
 
There are various algae and bacteria that can produce octane, and diesel (lipids) directly. There are currently many efforts at bio engineering them to be much more efficient. There are several companies in the commercialization stages of this effort, and third gen fuels on the way. 1 acre of soybeans can make about 20 barrels of bio-diesel (first gen), but it requires prime farm land and good water that should be used for food production. 1 acre of algae can produce 200 barrels of bio-diesel, and it can do it on a superfund site with municipal effluent (second gen). Third generation fuels are in the works.
 
Bio-tech has advanced tremendously in the last 10 years. In addition the demand from China, India, Brazil, and the former Eastern Block is making it impossible for OPEC to drive the price down. That has always been the real secret weapon. There are many different ways to produce liquid fuels. Coal to liquids, Gas to Liquids, Oil shale, Biological and thermal processes. Every time somebody would start to do this, or if we tried to increase domestic oil production, OPEC would flood the market with cheap crude. Thereby preventing any competition and maintaining OPEC's monopoly. That power is now gone. Perhaps we made the conscious decision in the cold war to use up everybody else's oil while sitting on ours...makes sense to me. Then the Greenies emerged or were created.  Regardless of what you or I personally think, bio based distributed energy is on the way, whether the powers that be want it or not.
 
Just THINK!!! Al Gore could produce at least a couple of barrels a week from verbal sewage alone.
 
Whether you are a greenie or not, or whether there is oil in the ground or not is beside the point.
 
Companies, and countries can control something 2000 ft under ground. Grass clippings, sewage, and bacteria are not so easily controlled. Even if only half of our energy comes from these sources, it will force the price of conventional petroleum products down worldwide and end the monopoly of energy by the few. I'm sure the greenies will find something to hate about this too. They can jump up and down and scream all they want. It doesn't matter.
 
You don't still believe the squished up dead dino juice fairytale do you??
 
Peace
 
Monty
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