X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.4] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.2) with ESMTP id 2875312 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:34:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.4; envelope-from=Lehanover@aol.com Received: from Lehanover@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.3.) id q.d69.297666cd (14457) for ; Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:33:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Lehanover@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 10:33:38 EDT Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] SAG To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1209393218" X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5132 X-Spam-Flag: NO -------------------------------1209393218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The timing problem is no problem at all. All references to timing are in crankshaft degrees and the crankshaft is turning three times faster than the rotor. So start thinking in terms of 1/3 of whatever timing is recommended for a rotary. Then compare that to your automotive experience. The engine will start and run just fine on nearly any timing number you can think of. For emissions control the rotary has come with timing like 5 BTDC and a split of 8 ATDC. A very modest 20 BTDC both is what was used for years in racing and off road and good up to 9,000 RPM. The lower the fuel octane the better the engine runs. For using avgas with slightly lower flame front speeds a bit more timing should be dialed in for good milage. For constant RPM operation 24 -28 degrees would work well. Even then the timing at the rotor face is a very mild 8 degrees BTDC. The secondary (high voltage) ignition breakdown was for more typical of points ignitions in the past. Points open slowly and with much electrical noise. Each cycle is different from the last. Slow switching a Kettering system allows slow voltage build up on the plug. So a number of viable paths may charge up before the primary collapse is complete. This flow is subtracted from the maximum secondary voltage expected at the plug gap. Later, electronic switching of Kettering systems eliminates this problem. So we are left with the "SAG" being caused by plug fouling providing dual paths for secondary flow, the lead fowling or the electrode gap. Voltage demand at the gap goes up with cylinder pressure. High cylinder pressure occurs at full throttle. So, if a slight throttle reduction (lowers cylinder pressure) eliminates the problem, it is likely that fouling is the culprit. If caught away from support, a reduction in plug gap will perk things up for a while. In the race car I use two MSD 6ALs with rev limiter chips for 9,800 RPM and NGK R6725-115 gapped at .010". Too cold a range for aircraft use and very expensive, but the gap is about right for very high RPM use. Lynn E. Hanover In a message dated 4/28/2008 5:07:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eanderson@carolina.rr.com writes: You are correct, George. SAG is not really a problem with the ignition system itself. SAG (Sparkplug Attention Getter) appears to be a result of spark plug fouling. I fly using 100LL and get 20-30 hours on a set of stock plugs before SAG starts to occur. It generally starts out infrequently and for short duration. The symptoms include: 1. First notice is a change in engine tone 2. EGT on the affected rotor will generally decrease approx 250-300F 3. RPM will drop approx 200-300 **************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851) -------------------------------1209393218 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The timing problem is no problem at all. All references to timing are&n= bsp;in crankshaft degrees and the crankshaft is turning  three times fa= ster than the rotor. So start thinking in terms of 1/3 of whatever timi= ng is recommended for a rotary. Then compare that to your automotive experie= nce. The engine will start and run just fine on nearly any timing number you= can think of. For emissions control the rotary has come with timing like 5=20= BTDC and a split of 8 ATDC. A very modest 20 BTDC both is what was used for=20= years in racing and off road and good up to 9,000 RPM. The lower the fuel oc= tane the better the engine runs.
 
For using avgas with slightly lower flame front speeds a bit more timin= g should be dialed in for good milage.
For constant RPM operation 24 -28 degrees would work well. Even then th= e timing at the rotor face is a very mild 8 degrees BTDC. 
 
The secondary (high voltage) ignition breakdown was for more typical of= points ignitions in the past. Points open slowly and with much electrical n= oise. Each cycle is different from the last. Slow switching a Kettering syst= em allows slow voltage build up on the plug. So a number of viable paths may= charge up before the primary collapse is complete. This flow is subtra= cted from the maximum secondary voltage expected at the plug gap. Later, ele= ctronic switching of Kettering systems eliminates this problem.
 
So we are left with the "SAG" being caused by plug fouling providing du= al paths for secondary flow, the lead fowling or the electrode gap. Voltage=20= demand at the gap goes up with cylinder pressure. High cylinder pressure occ= urs at full throttle. So, if a slight throttle reduction (lowers cylinder pr= essure) eliminates the problem, it is likely that fouling is the culprit. If= caught away from support, a reduction in plug gap will perk things up for a= while. In the race car I use two MSD 6ALs with rev limiter chips for 9,800=20= RPM and NGK R6725-115 gapped at .010". Too cold a range for aircraft use and= very expensive, but the gap is about right for very high RPM use.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/28/2008 5:07:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eanderso= n@carolina.rr.com writes:
You are correct, George.  SAG is not real= ly a problem with the ignition
system itself.

SAG (Sparkplug Atte= ntion Getter) appears to be a result of spark plug
fouling.  I fly=20= using 100LL and get 20-30 hours on a set of stock plugs
before SAG start= s to occur.  It generally starts out infrequently and for
short dur= ation.  The symptoms include:

1.  First notice is a change=20= in engine tone
2.  EGT on the affected rotor will generally decrease= approx 250-300F
3.  RPM will drop approx 200-300




Need a new ride? Check out=20= the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.
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