X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail01.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.182] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTPS id 2720005 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:55:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.182; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d211-31-127-254.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [211.31.127.254]) by mail01.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m17LsK5m019567 for ; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:54:22 +1100 Message-ID: <006801c869d3$ff012460$fe7f1fd3@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex plate(adendum) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 07:54:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0065_01C86A27.CF93D520" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C86A27.CF93D520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kelly, Yep! your right, I was referring to the matching code. I mentioned this = in case anyone would take rotors from different sources, however if they = came from the same engine their likely to be matched. I don't know how the counter weight is matched, I have seen and heard of = rebuilds that do all sorts of things and even balancing which is not as = good as factory balancing. I believe it's to do with what's ( what = weights)allowed for in the physically balancing. For those uneducated in the physical balancing process, the e-shaft is = spun up with dummy weights (bolted onto the e-shaft lobes) that = represent the weight of the rotor, all seal weights ( except apex seal = and spring) and the oil in the rotor. The counter weights are then = adjusted for best balance. Adjusting involves adding or removing metal = from the counter weights. I don't believe static balancing is accurate = enough fro a 2 rotor ( because of the rocking couple) but might be good = enough for the single rotor. I believe that's what Richard Sohn has done = to date for his single development. I think if we take parts from other engines ( as I am doing ) it would = be advantageous to know the variance of the code system. I believe = someone was working to identify what the difference in code represented = in weight - but no final outcome to my knowledge. If we could also nail = down the weight of the corresponding counter weight it would solve a lot = of problems for experimental builders. Instead of matching things we = could just weigh them. Is there any information you can give on different weights from your 3 = sets? George ( down under) George, I presume you are making reference to the letter (A,B,C,D) weight = code for rotors........Engines that have not been opened (stock) will have = matched weight rotors within one letter of each other (that is = AA-AB-BB-BC-CC-CD-DD)...... I have not heard of such a weight code for the counterweights but I = stand to be educated if there is one.......I have managed to collect 3 sets of = 89-91 rotors (9.7 to 1) with matching weight codes.........FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "George Lendich" = : --------------=20 Kelly and All, Even when the weight of the rotors and the counter weight are = confirmed as being compatible - one should also remember the lettering = stamping system which matches a paired set, for balancing through = similar weight. I have never been able to confirm what the difference in = weight is exactly, which is a shame. George ( down under) Joe, One other consideration........I have presumed your 89 13B was = a NA (6 port)=20 and not a Turbo (4 port) engine........Although the NA and Turbo = rotors are the same weight the Turbo rotors are 9.0 to1 comp. ratio.........(the = end I hope) -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" = : --------------=20 Joe, Yes the 3rd gen counterweight will work.......Just make sure = that that your 89 rotors are actually 9.7 to 1 with the machined depressions.........To = my knowledge Tracy's psru only takes the 2nd gen flexplate flywheel which bolts right on = any of the counterweights.. .........Bulent used a 13B Cosmo flexplate (it is like the 3rd = gen) but he used the Cosmo=20 bellhousing and a custom extended input shaft and had to make an = adaptor to his flexplate=20 for Tracy's psru torque isolator........The Cosmo and 3rd gen = automatic flexplate uses a=20 side mounted starter........As usual I bow to anyone for = correction if my info is faulty........=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Joe Berki" = : --------------=20 Thanks, I have a 89 and a earlier motor 88 or 86. I want to use the = 89 internals and irons if they measure, so what you are saying is that = the 89 has the same weight rotors as 3rd gen and can take the 3rd gen = flexplate and counterweigth? But what about using Tracy's PSRU? Is the = 2nd gen flexplate the only one that will work? Joe Berki ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:36 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Flex plate(adendum) Joe, Forgot to add this.........It depends on the year model = 13B also........The 86 to 88.5 2nd gen had heavier rotors and what I reported is = true.........The 88.5 to 91 2nd gen 13B have rotors the same weight as the 3rd gen and should be = able to use the 3rd gen rear counterweight.........You have to be careful with = the 88.5 to 89 2nd gen to make sure you have the lighter rotors (they are 9.7 to1 and = have a machined rather than a cast depressions in the rotor face)..........Sorry = for the omission.......... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Kelly Troyer" = : --------------=20 Joe, A 3rd gen counterweight and flex plate will fit 2nd gen = 13B but the counterweight will put the 2nd gen out of balance unless rotors and both = counterweights from the 3rd gen are installed also...........On another note if = this engine is for an A/C using Tracy's redrive you must use a 2nd gen = flexplate........FWIW -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Joe Berki" = : --------------=20 Will a flex plate and counterweight from a 3rd gen 13b = fit a 2nd gen 13b? How much for a flex plate and counterweight? Thanks = for any help. Joe berki Limo EZ -------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release = Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1256 - Release Date: = 2/02/2008 1:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: = 6/02/2008 8:14 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0065_01C86A27.CF93D520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kelly,
Yep! your right, I was referring to the = matching=20 code. I mentioned this in case anyone would take rotors from different = sources,=20 however if they came from the same engine their likely to be=20 matched.
 
I don't know how the counter weight is = matched, I=20 have seen and heard of rebuilds that do all sorts of things and even = balancing=20 which is not as good as factory balancing. I believe it's to do with = what's (=20 what weights)allowed for in the physically balancing.
 
For those uneducated in the physical = balancing=20 process, the e-shaft is spun up with dummy weights (bolted onto the = e-shaft=20 lobes) that represent the weight of the rotor, all seal weights ( = except=20 apex seal and spring) and the oil in the rotor. The counter weights are = then=20 adjusted for best balance. Adjusting involves adding or removing metal = from the=20 counter weights. I don't believe static balancing is accurate enough fro = a 2=20 rotor ( because of the rocking couple) but might be good enough for the = single=20 rotor. I believe that's what Richard Sohn has done to date for his = single=20 development.
 
I think if we take parts from other = engines ( as I=20 am doing ) it would be advantageous to know the variance of the code = system. I=20 believe someone was working to identify what the difference in code = represented=20 in weight - but no final outcome to my knowledge. If we could also nail = down the=20 weight of the corresponding counter weight it would solve a lot of = problems for=20 experimental builders. Instead of matching things we could just weigh=20 them.
 
Is there any information you can give = on different=20 weights from your 3 sets?
 
George ( down under)
George,
    I presume you are making reference to the = letter=20 (A,B,C,D) weight code for
rotors........Engines that have not been opened (stock) will have = matched=20 weight
rotors within one letter of each other (that is=20 AA-AB-BB-BC-CC-CD-DD)......
  I have not heard of such a weight code for the = counterweights but=20 I stand to
be educated if there is one.......I have managed to collect = 3 sets=20 of 89-91 rotors
(9.7 to 1) with matching weight codes.........FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20




--------------=20 Original message from "George Lendich" = <lendich@optusnet.com.au>:=20 --------------

Kelly and All,
Even when the weight of the rotors = and the=20 counter weight are confirmed as being compatible - one should also = remember=20 the lettering stamping system which matches a paired set, for = balancing=20 through similar weight. I have never been able to confirm what the=20 difference in weight is exactly, which is a shame.
George ( down under)
 
 
 
  Joe,
    One other consideration........I have = presumed=20 your 89 13B was a NA (6 port) 
and not a Turbo (4 port) engine........Although the NA = and Turbo=20 rotors are the
same weight the Turbo rotors are 9.0 to1 comp. = ratio.........(the end=20 I hope)
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20




--------------=20 Original message from "Kelly Troyer" <keltro@att.net>:=20 --------------

   Joe,
    Yes the 3rd gen counterweight will=20 work.......Just make sure that that your 89 rotors
are actually 9.7 to 1 with the machined = depressions.........To my=20 knowledge Tracy's psru
only takes the 2nd gen flexplate flywheel which bolts right = on any=20 of the counterweights..
.........Bulent used a 13B Cosmo flexplate (it is like the = 3rd=20 gen) but he used the Cosmo
bellhousing and a custom extended input shaft and had to = make an=20 adaptor to his flexplate
for Tracy's psru  torque isolator........The Cosmo and = 3rd gen=20 automatic flexplate uses a
side mounted starter........As usual I bow to anyone for = correction=20 if my info is faulty........ 
--
Kelly Troyer =
"Dyke=20 Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold




--------------=20 Original message from "Joe Berki" = <jskmberki@alltel.net>:=20 --------------

Thanks,
I have a 89 and a earlier = motor 88 or=20 86.  I want to use the 89 internals and irons if they = measure, so=20 what you are saying is that the 89 has the same weight rotors = as 3rd=20 gen and can take the 3rd gen flexplate and counterweigth? But = what=20 about using Tracy's PSRU?  Is the 2nd gen flexplate the = only one=20 that will work?
 
Joe Berki
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Kelly=20 Troyer
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, = February 05,=20 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: Flex=20 plate(adendum)

Joe,
  Forgot to add this.........It depends on the = year model=20 13B also........The 86 to 88.5
2nd gen had heavier rotors and what I reported is=20 true.........The 88.5 to 91 2nd gen
13B have rotors the same weight as the 3rd gen and = should be=20 able to use the 3rd
gen rear counterweight.........You have to be careful = with the=20 88.5 to 89 2nd gen to
make sure you have the lighter rotors (they are 9.7 to1 = and=20 have a machined rather
than a cast depressions in the rotor = face)..........Sorry for=20 the omission..........
--
Kelly Troyer =
"Dyke=20 Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =




--------------=20 Original message from "Kelly Troyer" = <keltro@att.net>:=20 --------------

Joe,
   A 3rd gen counterweight and flex plate = will fit=20 2nd gen 13B but the counterweight
will put the 2nd gen out of balance unless rotors and = both=20 counterweights  from the
3rd gen are installed also...........On another note = if this=20 engine is for an A/C using
Tracy's redrive you must use a 2nd gen=20 flexplate........FWIW
--
Kelly Troyer =
"Dyke=20 Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold =




--------------=20 Original message from "Joe Berki" = <jskmberki@alltel.net>:=20 --------------

Will a flex plate and = counterweight=20 from a 3rd gen 13b fit a 2nd gen 13b?  How much for = a flex=20 plate and counterweight?  Thanks for any = help.
 
Joe berki
Limo = EZ

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked = by AVG=20 Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: = 269.19.20/1261=20 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 = PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = Free=20 Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1256 - = Release=20 Date: 2/02/2008 1:50 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - = Release Date:=20 6/02/2008 8:14 PM
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