X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-d21.mx.aol.com ([205.188.144.207] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c4) with ESMTP id 2627861 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:47:11 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=205.188.144.207; envelope-from=BMears9413@aol.com Received: from BMears9413@aol.com by imo-d21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.3.) id q.bdb.211be9d0 (37529) for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from WEBMAIL-DC07 (webmail-dc07.webmail.aol.com [205.188.149.29]) by cia-mb01.mx.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILCIAMB012-9299477bb1c417c; Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:46:12 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Floooooding! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:46:12 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 65.182.71.8 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bmears9413@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CA1B6DBC4F80E0_1DC_D6C8_WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 33161-STANDARD Received: from 65.182.71.8 by WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com (205.188.149.29) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Wed, 02 Jan 2008 10:46:12 -0500 Message-Id: <8CA1B6DBC4F80E0-1DC-6A7A@WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8CA1B6DBC4F80E0_1DC_D6C8_WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Funny reading that Lynn. Brought back some memories.In our old RX2 days we w= ired the starter (old top mount) 24 volts. That ended our starting problems. Bob Mears -----Original Message----- From: Lehanover@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 8:24 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Floooooding! In a message dated 1/2/2008 2:09:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bbradburry@b= ellsouth.net writes: I was about to try new plugs, when I decided to take the old ones over to a=20= friends shop and sand blast them.=C2=A0 (be sure to get all the sand out!) I put the plugs back in and it fired right up!=C2=A0 When the Renesis plugs=20= get fouled, they are difficult to clean.=C2=A0 Try it=E2=80=A6It worked for=20= me.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bill B When the RX-8 first hit the street, there were many call backs for re-burns=20= of the computer. And many tow ins for no start. This caused thousands to fal= l out of love with the rotary.=C2=A0Once the falling cranking speed curve cr= osses the rate of compression leakage curve, there is no hope at all that it= will start. =C2=A0 I don't know what strategy they used to overcome this problem. Perhaps no fu= el for the first full rotation, so cranking speed is up a bit, or multiple s= parks on start up, but finding out what they did might be helpful. =C2=A0 Poor starting performance is not a new problem. The old top mounted starters= were like 5 HP and spin the thing up right now. I used to drive the race ca= r into the trailer on the starter. The current race car has the top mounted=20= starter. The driver had no idea how things work and would often leave us on=20= the false grid with a no start after a long warm up. Then, any problem that=20= required a shutdown prior to the race start, moved us to last onto the track= .=20 =C2=A0 The fool proof (you might say) start procedure was 6 full strokes on the thr= ottle. This put a bunch of fuel into the engine, and when the starter was en= gaged, the throttle was to be just off idle. It started every time.=20 =C2=A0 However, the driver would miss the start be sneaking in more throttle while=20= cranking (because as everyone knows, more throttle is better than less throt= tle) This would get a start and short run and then a stop.=20 =C2=A0 The throttle plate is opened past the idle and transition circuit holes, and= engine RPM is not high enough for the booster to drop in any fuel. Eventual= ly the idle was raised from the normal 2,000 RPM to 2,200 RPM, and the drive= r was not allowed to touch the throttle while starting. It worked fine, and=20= I didn't have to dive into the office and operate the throttle pedal by hand= to get a start.=20 =C2=A0 This was with the side seal end clearance set at zero and not the book value= of .002" to .004". And not the two piece corner seals with the rubber plug=20= in the center, but the old solid corner seals. Not the tight fitting two pie= ce seals but one piece carbon seals with .004" end clearance.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The second week after a rebuild, the engine would be so tight, that it would= start and drive away if left in first gear, just by touching the starter bu= tton. With a 2,200 RPM idle you have to be darn fast at problem solving to p= revent a disaster when this happens. In race cars the master switch has to b= e visible in the corner of the driver or passenger side window.=20 =C2=A0 You race on spark plugs that look like any other plug except for the heat ra= nge. So if the engine will not be loaded at full throttle for very long, as=20= in the break-in period, very conventional (hot street) plugs work just fine.= Plus they cost less than the fancy turbo plugs, and are more difficult to f= oul. Look how tight the gap is on those stock turbo plugs. Gap any 3/4" reac= h medium or retracted tip plug to .012" and screw it in.=20 =C2=A0 I gap race plugs to .010". They are the coldest heat range on earth, and the= y do not foul. =C2=A0 Those plugs with the 4 thick ground electrodes that look just like airplane=20= plugs are nearly impossible to clean. Once they get a carbon path on them, t= hey are done. It may even have a nice spark in open air, but when a little c= ompression is involved, they do nothing. Just like the ignition is off.=20 =C2=A0 If you must clean a plug with blasting, use rice hulls=C2=A0or walnut hulls.= Never sand. One grain of sand can ruin a rotary. Plus, sand takes the nice,= glass smooth surface off of the porcelain and makes further fouling a sure=20= thing. =C2=A0 And one last thought. These engines came with a converter full of oil, or a=20= 42 pound flywheel mounted on them. The flywheel effect is a big help when st= arting. If there is no mass to help overcome the next rotor going into compr= ession, you need a good crisp powerful hit out of each rotor face to get it=20= going. A lazy sounding whomph now and then is not going to cut it. =C2=A0The= engine is way over square. (The area of the rotor face compared to the stro= ke)=C2=A0. So, think about a prop if none is installed. A metal prop would b= e better than a wood prop. I hate to even think about this as there will be=20= some people who do not work well with propellers, but in any case go slow and be very careful.=20 =C2=A0 Lynn E. Hanover=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Picture is the race car with the body off (weighs 80 pounds) and the driver=20= Terry Whilock. See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. =20 -- omepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ rchive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.ht= ml ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.= aol.com ----------MB_8CA1B6DBC4F80E0_1DC_D6C8_WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Funny reading that Lynn. Brought back some memories.In our old RX2 days we w= ired the starter (old top mount) 24 volts. That ended our starting problems.=

Bob Mears


-----Original Message-----
From: Lehanover@aol.com
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 8:24 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Floooooding!

In a message dated 1/2/2008 2:09:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes:
I was about to try ne= w plugs, when I decided to take the old ones over to a friends shop and sand= blast them.  (be sure to get all the sand out!)
I put the plugs back=20= in and it fired right up!  When the Renesis plugs get fouled, they are=20= difficult to clean.  Try it=E2=80=A6It worked for me. 
 <= /div>
Bill B<= /div>
When the RX-8 first hit the street, there were many call backs for re-b= urns of the computer. And many tow ins for no start. This caused thousands t= o fall out of love with the rotary. Once the falling cranking speed cur= ve crosses the rate of compression leakage curve, there is no hope at all th= at it will start.
 
I don't know what strategy they used to overcome this problem. Perhaps=20= no fuel for the first full rotation, so cranking speed is up a bit, or multi= ple sparks on start up, but finding out what they did might be helpful.
 
Poor starting performance is not a new problem. The old top mounted sta= rters were like 5 HP and spin the thing up right now. I used to drive the ra= ce car into the trailer on the starter. The current race car has the top mou= nted starter. The driver had no idea how things work and would often leave u= s on the false grid with a no start after a long warm up. Then, any problem=20= that required a shutdown prior to the race start, moved us to last onto the=20= track.
 
The fool proof (you might say) start procedure was 6 full strokes on th= e throttle. This put a bunch of fuel into the engine, and when the starter w= as engaged, the throttle was to be just off idle. It started every time.
 
However, the driver would miss the start be sneaking in more throttle w= hile cranking (because as everyone knows, more throttle is better than less=20= throttle) This would get a start and short run and then a stop.
 
The throttle plate is opened past the idle and transition circuit holes= , and engine RPM is not high enough for the booster to drop in any fuel. Eve= ntually the idle was raised from the normal 2,000 RPM to 2,200 RPM, and the=20= driver was not allowed to touch the throttle while starting. It worked fine,= and I didn't have to dive into the office and operate the throttle pedal by= hand to get a start.
 
This was with the side seal end clearance set at zero and not the book=20= value of .002" to .004". And not the two piece corner seals with the rubber=20= plug in the center, but the old solid corner seals. Not the tight fitting tw= o piece seals but one piece carbon seals with .004" end clearance. 
 
The second week after a rebuild, the engine would be so tight, that it=20= would start and drive away if left in first gear, just by touching the start= er button. With a 2,200 RPM idle you have to be darn fast at problem solving= to prevent a disaster when this happens. In race cars the master switch has= to be visible in the corner of the driver or passenger side window.
 
You race on spark plugs that look like any other plug except for the he= at range. So if the engine will not be loaded at full throttle for very long= , as in the break-in period, very conventional (hot street) plugs work just=20= fine. Plus they cost less than the fancy turbo plugs, and are more difficult= to foul. Look how tight the gap is on those stock turbo plugs. Gap any 3/4"= reach medium or retracted tip plug to .012" and screw it in.
 
I gap race plugs to .010". They are the coldest heat range on earth, an= d they do not foul.
 
Those plugs with the 4 thick ground electrodes that look just like airp= lane plugs are nearly impossible to clean. Once they get a carbon path on th= em, they are done. It may even have a nice spark in open air, but when a lit= tle compression is involved, they do nothing. Just like the ignition is off.=
 
If you must clean a plug with blasting, use rice hulls or walnut h= ulls. Never sand. One grain of sand can ruin a rotary. Plus, sand takes the=20= nice, glass smooth surface off of the porcelain and makes further fouling a=20= sure thing.
 
And one last thought. These engines came with a converter full of oil,=20= or a 42 pound flywheel mounted on them. The flywheel effect is a big help wh= en starting. If there is no mass to help overcome the next rotor going into=20= compression, you need a good crisp powerful hit out of each rotor face to ge= t it going. A lazy sounding whomph now and then is not going to cut it. &nbs= p;The engine is way over square. (The area of the rotor face compared to the= stroke) . So, think about a prop if none is installed. A metal prop wo= uld be better than a wood prop. I hate to even think about this as there wil= l be some people who do not work well with propellers,
but in any case go slow and be very careful.
 
Lynn E. Hanover 
 
Picture is the race car with the body off (weighs 80 pounds) and the dr= iver Terry Whilock.



More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
----------MB_8CA1B6DBC4F80E0_1DC_D6C8_WEBMAIL-DC07.sysops.aol.com--