X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2571606 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 19:05:48 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071208000507.JAO8432.cdptpa-omta05.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:05:07 +0000 Message-ID: <000f01c8392d$bcc0c280$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: wide band O2 sensor Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:03:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C83903.D3928860" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C83903.D3928860 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C83903.D3928860" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C83903.D3928860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No recommendation from me, George.=20 The wide band sensor has a more linear voltage curve which means you = can interpolate a bit more accurately than with the "Z" curve of the = narrow band sensor. So if you really need to know your absolute A/F = like 12.53 (rather than a relative lean/rich) Air/Fuel mixture then the = broadband is probably the way to go - provided of course, you are not = using leaded fuel. I don't know what leaded fuel does to the wide band = - it apparently reduces the sensitivity (or reaction time) of the = narrow band to where it is rendered unusable for its role in the = automobiles fuel/emission control scheme - but, doesn't hurt its ability = to give you a relative lean/rich indication. However, as the article pointed out there are even other dangers if you = are running boost and using a wide band - so I was just doing my civic = duty {:>) to bring it to the lists attention. For my purposes the = cheaper narrow band works just fine. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 6:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: wide band O2 sensor Ed, So are you recommending narrow band sensors for Aviation use - I can't = remember the argument for wide band sensors. George ( down under) I don't know whether anybody is using or contemplating using a wide = band sensor for Air/Fuel ratio indications. I've looked into it and = could find no advantage (for my usage) that would justify the additional = cost. Apparently there is a "simulated narrowband output" which I was = unaware of. =20 But, here are a few other considerations that you might want to = think about: at this URL :=20 http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm Wideband Sensor Positioning The wideband sensor must be carefully placed in order to prevent = damage to the sensor itself and to maximise accuracy. Also, if you use = the sensor's output directly (via the simulated narrowband output) to = drive your ECU then you should be doubly careful. Please follow all of = these "rules" :=20 a.. The sensor should always be placed on the engine side of a = catalytic converter, unless you are testing the effectiveness of the = convertor itself.=20 b.. The gas temperature to the sensor should never exceed 850 = degrees C (about 1560 degrees Fahrenheit).=20 c.. The sensor should never be run without power to the WB unit (a = hot sensor burns off carbon residues)=20 d.. Always have the long axis of the sensor perpendicular to the = gas flow (stops sensor clogging)=20 e.. Position the sensor vertically or at most between 10 o'clock = to the 2 o'clock position (this avoids cracking the internal ceramic = structure should moisture condense internally)=20 f.. We don't recommend using a short sections of exhaust pipe = shoved up your tailpipe. A specially welded additional bung is the best = mounting strategy.=20 The sensor reads the partial pressure of gases in the exhaust and = infers the AFR, rather than by measuring some magical AFR directly. This = may be an issue on forced induction, and in particular, on turbo-charged = engines.=20 a.. AFRs will indicate richer than they are, causing you to run = leaner than you think.=20 b.. Lean AFR's will be richer (or less lean) than indicted.=20 A solution is to ensure you locate your sensor away from the turbo, = and certainly on the exhaust (low pressure) side of the turbo rather = than the engine side.=20 =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - Release Date: = 6/12/2007 10:11 AM ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C83903.D3928860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No recommendation from me, = George. 
 
 The wide band sensor has a more linear = voltage curve=20 which means you can interpolate a bit more accurately than with the "Z" = curve of=20 the narrow band sensor.  So if you really need to know your=20 absolute A/F like 12.53  (rather than a relative lean/rich) = Air/Fuel=20 mixture then the broadband is probably the way to go - provided of = course, you=20 are not using leaded fuel.  I don't know what leaded fuel does to = the wide=20 band - it apparently reduces the sensitivity (or reaction time)  of = the=20 narrow band to where it is rendered unusable for its role in the = automobiles=20 fuel/emission control scheme - but, doesn't hurt its ability to give you = a=20 relative lean/rich indication.
 
However, as the article pointed out there are = even other=20 dangers if you are running boost and using a wide band - so I was just = doing my=20 civic duty {:>) to bring it to the lists attention.  For my = purposes the=20 cheaper narrow band works just fine.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 = 6:34=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: wide = band O2=20 sensor

Ed,
So are you recommending narrow band = sensors for=20 Aviation use - I can't remember the argument for wide band=20 sensors.
George ( down under)
I don't know whether anybody is using or = contemplating=20 using a wide band sensor for Air/Fuel ratio indications.  I've = looked=20 into it and could find no advantage (for my usage) that would = justify the=20 additional cost.  Apparently there is a "simulated = narrowband=20 output" which I was unaware of.   
 
But, here are a few other considerations = that you=20 might want to think about:
at this URL :
http://www.t= echedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
 

Wideband Sensor Positioning

The wideband sensor must be carefully placed in order to=20 prevent damage to the sensor itself and to maximise = accuracy.=20 Also, if you use the sensor's output directly (via the simulated=20 narrowband output) to drive your ECU then you should be doubly = careful.=20 Please follow all of these "rules" :

  • The sensor should always be placed on the engine side of a = catalytic=20 converter, unless you are testing the effectiveness of the = convertor=20 itself.=20
  • The gas temperature to the sensor should never exceed = 850=20 degrees C (about 1560 degrees Fahrenheit).=20
  • The sensor should never be run without power to the WB = unit (a=20 hot sensor burns off carbon residues)=20
  • Always have the long axis of the sensor perpendicular = to the=20 gas flow (stops sensor clogging)=20
  • Position the sensor vertically or at most between 10 = o'clock to=20 the 2 o'clock position (this avoids cracking the internal = ceramic=20 structure should moisture condense internally)=20
  • We don't recommend using a short sections of exhaust = pipe=20 shoved up your tailpipe. A specially welded additional = bung=20 is the best mounting strategy.

The sensor reads the partial pressure of gases in the exhaust and = infers=20 the AFR, rather than by measuring some magical AFR directly. This = may be an=20 issue on forced induction, and in particular, on = turbo-charged=20 engines.

  • AFRs will indicate richer than they are, causing you to run = leaner=20 than you think.=20
  • Lean AFR's will be richer (or less lean) than indicted. =

A solution is to ensure you locate your sensor away from the = turbo, and=20 certainly on the exhaust (low pressure) side of the turbo rather = than the=20 engine side.

3D"Palm
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.comhttp://www.andersonee.com
http:/= /members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda= /index.html

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG = Free=20 Edition.
Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.16.15/1174 - = Release=20 Date: 6/12/2007 10:11 AM
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