X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2557606 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 12:26:09 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071205172531.QZLX5837.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 17:25:31 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01c83763$8eb81da0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth injection Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 12:23:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01C83739.A595CA60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C83739.A595CA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bill,=20 Ok, just thought since Ben mentioned water/methanol injection he was = also interested in cooling the intake charge. I don't think I would = want to inject sufficient water to bring the EGT down that much. = Changing the phase state of water undoubtedly absorbs heat from the = combustion process - if it is necessary to prevent detonation/preigntion = then of course its worth it - but its bound to reduce the power output. From what I have read in the Turbo books, most experts now adays appear = to consider water injection a poorer approach than - say backing off = ignition time via knock sensors. Yes, the turbo housings (without the exhaust splitter) have tended to = pound anything that is close to perpendicular to the front of the shock = wave into pieces - in short order. I've never had any trouble with the = heat as I use stainless steel pipe for my headers (which are 18" long) = and by the time it gets to the muffler, the temp has decreased - but = apparently not the shock wave. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 10:15 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth = injection Ed, intake charge cooling is fairly easily understood, but I believe = Ben was talking about cooling the rotary EXHAUST. You have mentioned = that the exhaust tends to melt or batter everything in front of it. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 5:01 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Methods of charge cooling was Water/Meth = injection Ben, here is a URL that gives a number of different ways to cool the = intake charge. You may find it interesting = http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&task=3Dview&id=3D= 24 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ben Baltrusaitis=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Water/Meth injection I have moved away from the Rotary (shame on me) and toward the = Subaru. I have been researching how to get more torque and found the = only way is with boost. The street Subaru guys are injecting water and = methanol to avoid detonation under high boost--getting 450 hp from 2.5 = liters. The methanol and water cool the charge while the methanol also = increases the octane. This allows them to run 89 or 91 octane fuel under = low boost w/o injection and have high octane-high boost with injection. = The injection is set to start at a certain boost pressure or rpm level. I am going to go this route in my aerobatic biplane so I can run on = cheap fuel in econo cruise and still not detonate while doing full = throttle aerobatics. One of the side benefits of this injection is lower EGTs--as much as = 400 degrees. Has anyone done any testing with water injection to lower = EGTs? Another benefit is much cleaner combustion chambers. That sounds = useful to me, too. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3D937176 http://www.slowboyracing.com/estore/home.php?cat=3D4559 Ben=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C83739.A595CA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bill,
 
Ok, just thought since Ben mentioned = water/methanol=20 injection he was also interested in cooling the intake charge.  I = don't=20 think I would want to inject sufficient water to bring the EGT down that = much.  Changing the phase state of water undoubtedly absorbs heat = from the=20 combustion process - if it is necessary to prevent detonation/preigntion = then of=20 course its worth it - but its bound to reduce the power = output.
 
From what I have read in the Turbo books, most = experts now=20 adays appear to consider water injection a poorer approach than - say = backing=20 off ignition time via knock sensors.
 
Yes, the turbo housings (without the exhaust = splitter)=20 have tended to pound anything that is close to perpendicular to the = front of the=20 shock wave into pieces - in short order.  I've never had any = trouble with=20 the heat as I use stainless steel pipe for my headers (which are 18" = long) and=20 by the time it gets to the muffler, the temp has decreased - but = apparently not=20 the shock wave.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, = 2007 10:15=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Methods of=20 charge cooling was Water/Meth injection

Ed, intake charge cooling is fairly easily understood, but I = believe Ben=20 was talking about cooling the rotary EXHAUST. You have mentioned that = the=20 exhaust tends to melt or batter everything in front of it.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed = Anderson=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Tue, 4 Dec 2007 5:01 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Methods of charge = cooling was=20 Water/Meth injection

Ben, here is a URL = that gives a=20 number of different ways to cool the intake charge.  You may find = it=20 interesting
 
http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=3Dcom_content&= amp;task=3Dview&id=3D24
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ben=20 Baltrusaitis
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, = 2007 3:00=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Water/Meth=20 injection

I have moved away from the Rotary (shame on me) and toward the = Subaru.=20 I have been researching how to get more torque and found the only = way is=20 with boost. The street Subaru guys are injecting water and methanol = to avoid=20 detonation under high boost--getting 450 hp from 2.5 liters. The = methanol=20 and water cool the charge while the methanol also increases the = octane.=20 This allows them to run 89 or 91 octane fuel under low boost w/o = injection=20 and have high octane-high boost with injection. The injection is set = to=20 start at a certain boost pressure or rpm level.
 
I am going to go this route in my aerobatic biplane so I can = run on=20 cheap fuel in econo cruise and still not detonate while doing full = throttle=20 aerobatics.
 
One of the side benefits of this injection is lower EGTs--as = much as=20 400 degrees. Has anyone done any testing with water injection to = lower=20 EGTs?
 
Another benefit is much cleaner combustion chambers. That = sounds=20 useful to me, too.
 
 
 
Ben 
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