X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2430504 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:23:22 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071024122243.JPYG3242.cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c81638$4ecf5790$2502a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel delivery at WOT Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:20:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81616.C78B8400" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81616.C78B8400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, Bill The snubber modification and the simulation are two completely separate = items. The snubber mod simply places a couple of physical components on = the board to prevent the voltage induced by the injectors magnetic field = collapsing from holding the injectors open longer than they should be. = The simulation is a software addition to the EC2 computer program that = permits you to trigger the injectors as if the engine were running = around 4000 rpm. This used Mode1, you can do a similar thing with mode = 9 and the ignition circuit. So I don't know whether you have the simulator or not but it is not = related to the snubber fix. Best way to find out is turn off your fuel pumps, turn on your EC2, put = it in mode 1 and press the program control button. If the injectors = rapidly click then you have the simulation mode for certain.=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 10:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel delivery at WOT Ed, Did I understand that you have to have the "snubber" modification = in order to get the injector simulation mode? I have not had this mod. = My instructions are at the hangar, but I thought the "snubber" mod was = the one that made the simulation mode possible.??? =20 The engine runs fine with either primary or secondary injectors = disabled. Also with leading or trailing coils disabled. My fuel = pressure is 39-40 lbs when the engine is not running and 35-36 lbs when = it is running. Turning on the secondary pump raises these numbers by = 2-3 lbs. I can hear fuel being returned to the tank when the engine is = not running..when it is running I can't hear anything!! J =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel delivery at WOT =20 Bill, I do not have a Renesis but may have some things for you to = check. =20 With the older 13B with the 460 cc/min injectors, you could get full = power to over 6000 rpm on just the primaries along. The Renesis I = understand has smaller primary injectors - like 250 cc/min. I strongly = suspect they would NOT support full power past 6000 rpm perhaps even = less. So I suspect one of the following: =20 1. Secondary injectors not firing 2. EC2 is not staging to bring on the secondary injectors =20 Your fuel flow does not appear to be the problem because when you hit = the cold start switch you got more fuel - but you didn't say how long = you ran it with the coldstart on - a few seconds or several minutes? If = several minutes, I would say your fuel flow system is probably not the = culprit. =20 The first thing I would check is to make certain all four injectors = are firing. You can do this by selecting Mode 1 and (after making = absolutely certain your fuel pumps are all OFF) hit the program button. = This should start the injector simulation mode - all 4 injectors = clicking away like mad. Using a small wooden/metal rod tube to hold = close to your ear place the other end on each injector - you should hear = all four clicking. If the secondary injectors are not clicking then you = can start your trouble shooting. =20 The injectors could all be working, but for some reason the EC2 is not = staging - don't know what would cause this, but if the staging manifold = pressure were accidentally set to much higher than Tracy recommends, = then you could be running out of fuel from the primaries before the = secondary kick in. =20 Even if the secondary were not working, by turning on the cold start = you would have doubled the pulse to the primaries thereby essentially = doubling your fuel amount injected. =20 Lastly you could have a fuel flow restriction some place in your = system. =20 =20 Hope this helps. =20 Ed =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:34 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Fuel delivery at WOT =20 I have been concerned that I am not getting the static rpm that = others are getting with similar props. I have the stock Renesis with = the Performance Props 76 X 88. I seem to be limited to about 4200 rpm. = I hit 4800 once the other day, but did not know what might have caused = the change. I just finished the install of the pressure overflow bottle = per Lynn's msg of a while back and was running the engine up to try and = eliminate any air that might still be in the engine. I noticed that = when the rpm reached 4200 or so, I still had about an inch of throttle = left. After pondering that for a couple of minutes, I pushed the = throttle to the wall, the engine started to run rough, and I reached = over and flipped the cold start switch on.. =20 Mein Cod!!! =20 It immediately hit 5350! =20 Apparently I am not getting enough fuel flow to support high rpm. I = have not done the self tuning at high rpm yet, but I would not expect = that the fuel flow would be so low as to limit the rpm. =20 =20 What suggestions do you have? My ability to self tune has been = limited due to cooling issues.especially at WOT! =20 Lynn, it is too early to be sure yet, but your idea for the pressure = bottle looks like it is going to help the cooling a lot. It may not be = the complete solution, but it seems to be a step in the right direction. = Thanks! =20 =20 Bill B ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C81616.C78B8400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, Bill
 
The snubber modification and the simulation are = two=20 completely separate items.  The snubber mod simply places a couple = of=20 physical components on the board to prevent the voltage induced by the = injectors=20 magnetic field collapsing from holding the injectors open longer than = they=20 should be.  The simulation is a software addition to the EC2 = computer=20 program that permits you to trigger the injectors as if the engine were = running=20 around 4000 rpm.  This used Mode1, you can do a similar thing with = mode 9=20 and the ignition circuit.
 
So I don't know whether you have the simulator = or not but=20 it is not related to the snubber fix.
 
Best way to find out is turn off your fuel = pumps, turn on=20 your EC2, put it in mode 1 and press the program control button.  = If the=20 injectors rapidly click then you have the simulation mode for certain.=20
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 = 10:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = delivery at=20 WOT

Ed, Did I = understand=20 that you have to have the =93snubber=94 modification in order to get = the injector=20 simulation mode?  I have not had this mod.  My instructions = are at=20 the hangar, but I thought the =93snubber=94 mod was the one that made = the=20 simulation mode possible.???

 

The engine = runs fine=20 with either primary or secondary injectors disabled.  Also with = leading=20 or trailing coils disabled.  My fuel pressure is 39-40 lbs when = the=20 engine is not running and 35-36 lbs when it is running.  Turning = on the=20 secondary pump raises these numbers by 2-3 lbs.  I can hear fuel = being=20 returned to the tank when the engine is not running=85.when it is = running I=20 can=92t hear anything!! J

 

Bill=20 B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 = 8:31=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel = delivery at=20 WOT

 

Bill, I do not have a = Renesis but=20 may have some things for you to = check.

 

With the older 13B with = the 460=20 cc/min injectors, you could get full power to over 6000 rpm on just = the=20 primaries along.  The Renesis I understand has smaller primary = injectors=20 - like 250 cc/min.  I strongly suspect they would NOT support = full power=20 past 6000 rpm perhaps even less.  So I suspect one of the=20 following:

 

1.  Secondary = injectors not=20 firing

2.  EC2 is not = staging to=20 bring on the secondary injectors

 

Your fuel flow does not = appear to=20 be the problem because when you hit the cold start switch you got more = fuel -=20 but you didn't say how long you ran it with the coldstart on - a few = seconds=20 or several minutes?  If several minutes, I would say your fuel = flow=20 system is probably not the culprit.

 

The first thing I would = check is=20 to make certain all four injectors are firing.  You can do this = by=20 selecting Mode 1 and (after making absolutely certain your fuel pumps = are all=20 OFF) hit the program button.  This should start the injector = simulation=20 mode - all 4 injectors clicking away like mad.  Using a small=20 wooden/metal rod tube to hold close to your ear place the other end on = each=20 injector - you should hear all four clicking.  If the secondary = injectors=20 are not clicking then you can start your trouble=20 shooting.

 

The injectors could all = be=20 working, but for some reason the EC2 is not staging - don't know what = would=20 cause this, but if the staging manifold pressure were accidentally set = to much=20 higher than Tracy recommends, then you could be running out of fuel = from the=20 primaries before the secondary kick = in.

 

Even if the secondary = were not=20 working, by turning on the cold start you would have doubled the pulse = to the=20 primaries thereby essentially doubling your fuel amount=20 injected.

 

Lastly you could have a = fuel flow=20 restriction some place in your = system.

 

 

Hope this=20 helps.

 

Ed

 

 

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Bill=20 Bradburry

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Tuesday, October 23, 2007 6:34 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Fuel delivery at WOT

 

I have = been=20 concerned that I am not getting the static rpm that others are = getting with=20 similar props.  I have the stock Renesis with the Performance = Props 76=20 X 88.  I seem to be limited to about 4200 rpm.  I hit 4800 = once=20 the other day, but did not know what might have caused the = change.  I=20 just finished the install of the pressure overflow bottle per = Lynn=92s = msg of a while=20 back and was running the engine up to try and eliminate any air that = might=20 still be in the engine.  I noticed that when the rpm reached = 4200 or=20 so, I still had about an inch of throttle left.  After = pondering that=20 for a couple of minutes, I pushed the throttle to the wall, the = engine=20 started to run rough, and I reached over and flipped the cold start = switch=20 on=85.

 

Mein=20 Cod!!!

 

It = immediately hit=20 5350!

 

Apparently I am not=20 getting enough fuel flow to support high rpm.  I have not done = the self=20 tuning at high rpm yet, but I would not expect that the fuel flow = would be=20 so low as to limit the rpm. 

 

What = suggestions do=20 you have?  My ability to self tune has been limited due to = cooling=20 issues=85especially at WOT!

 

Lynn, it is = too early=20 to be sure yet, but your idea for the pressure bottle looks like it = is going=20 to help the cooling a lot.  It may not be the complete = solution, but it=20 seems to be a step in the right direction. =20 Thanks!

 

 

Bill=20 = B

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