X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost01.isp.att.net ([204.127.217.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2368243 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 04 Oct 2007 10:08:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.101; envelope-from=bbradburry@bellsouth.net Received: from arptk8ng400 (adsl-146-124-76.mco.bellsouth.net[72.146.124.76]) by bellsouth.net (frfwmhc01) with SMTP id <20071004140800H0100a1igre>; Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:08:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [72.146.124.76] From: "Bill Bradburry" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:08:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C8066E.72FC84A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcgGA9zZzXFfBYN2T42UtpTc152eOgAi8e5g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C8066E.72FC84A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok. Mark, I will put a mechanical gage on the other side of the "T" and compare them. Thanks, Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:24 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Bill, I've recently been bitten by the same thing, only with my coolant sensors. Take the time, then you'll know for sure that what the EM-2 is displaying is correct. Its worth the time & effort, so you'll know. Using spare fittings, I built a test manifold using an air chuck to connect to my air compressor, a pressure regulator (integrated into the air compressor) to adjust pressure, and a welding gauge for an accurate readout. Screw your sensor into a 1/8 npt fitting and compare the reading on the gauge with the EM-2, calibrate as needed. Mark On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry wrote: No silly questions possible, Mark. No, I haven't. It is the sensor that came with the EM-2 and when there is no pressure, it shows zero. My assumption (yeah, I know..) is that it is set to work with the EM-2. I plan to put a mechanical gage in to see how close it is, but will need someone to read it while I man the controls.:>) I do think that it is pretty close tho. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:26 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Bill, Silly question, but have you calibrated your pressure sensor? Mark S. On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry < bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote: I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak? I never see any air. To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles.How do you check a rotary? I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above 250*?? Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys. Bill B _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al p Wick Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:49 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Your coolant reservoir should be above engine. 1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then repeat your test. 2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of cold start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling system or bad gage. 3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other cooling factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local boiling, high temps, strange behavior. Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety and diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only see 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have genuine problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator of system integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect on system efficiency, just a substantial improvement in safety. Only time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir was way too small, way too low, or flowed way too much coolant. Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have temperature problem. I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various concepts. Don't recommend you do the same. -al wick On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" < bbradburry@bellsouth.net> writes: I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my cowl. I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures. I can only run the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*. My water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time. I only have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have not confirmed that. My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*. It might have gone higher if I could have run longer??? This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled. Since this is a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to the expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some comments that have been made from time to time. I remember something that Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to zero. It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely since it is a closed system?? Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressure? It seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, so the net effect of the pump should be close to zero?? Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not have to tear it down. As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how the water flows through the system. Could someone help me with that? I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to the lower inlet of the pump. Thanks, Bill B -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C8066E.72FC84A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok. Mark, I will put a mechanical = gage on the other side of the “T” and compare = them.

 

Thanks,

=

Bill B

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, October = 03, 2007 5:24 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water Pressure

 

Bill,

I've recently been bitten by the same thing, only with my = coolant sensors.  Take the time, then you'll know for sure that = what the EM-2 is displaying is correct.  Its worth the time & effort, so = you'll know. 

 

Using spare fittings, I built a test manifold using an air chuck = to connect to my air compressor, a pressure regulator (integrated = into the air compressor) to adjust pressure, and a welding gauge for an = accurate readout.  Screw your sensor into a 1/8 npt fitting and compare the = reading on the gauge with the EM-2, calibrate as needed. =

 

Mark

 

On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>= wrote:

No silly questions possible, Mark.  No, I = haven't. It is the sensor that came with the EM-2 and when there is no pressure, it = shows zero.  My assumption (yeah, I know..) is that it is set to work = with the EM-2.  I plan to put a mechanical gage in to see how close it is, = but will need someone to read it while I man the controls…:>) =

I do think that it is pretty close = tho…

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, October = 03, 2007 12:26 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water Pressure

 

Bill,

 

Silly question, but have you calibrated your pressure sensor?  =

 

Mark S.

 

On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry = < bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if = I had a compression gas leak?  I never see any air. =

To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you = would put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles…How do you = check a rotary?

I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. 

There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the = pressure is higher than it should be until just ready to boil.  I shut the = engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above = 250*??

 

Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, = guys…

 

Bill B

 

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Al p = Wick
Sent: Tuesday, October = 02, 2007 7:49 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water Pressure

 

Your coolant reservoir should be above engine.

 

1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then repeat your test. =

2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of cold start, = you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling system or bad gage. =

 

3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other cooling factor. = Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local boiling, high temps, strange = behavior.

 

Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety and diagnosis = advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only see 22 psi if you = have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have genuine problem. The = pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator of system integrity. So two = cups of air has no negative effect on system efficiency, just a substantial = improvement in safety. Only time it could be a negative would be if your reservoir = was way too small, way too low, or flowed way too much coolant. =

 

Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have temperature = problem.

 

I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was intimate with pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various concepts. = Don't recommend you do the same.

 

-al wick

 

 

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" < bbradburry@bellsouth.net> writes:

I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my = cowl.  I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures.  I can only run the = engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*.  My water = pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time.  I only have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I = assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have not confirmed = that.  My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*.  It might have gone = higher if I could have run longer???

 

This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled.  Since this is = a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to the = expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some comments that have = been made from time to time.  I remember something that Tracy said about his pressure would = build for a time, then go to zero.  It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely since it is a closed system?? =

 

Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressure?  It = seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the positive side of = the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, so the net effect of = the pump should be close to zero??

 

Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not have = to tear it down.  As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how the = water flows through the system.  Could someone help me with that?  I = had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I made an adapter = plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump and sends it to the = radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to the lower inlet of = the pump.

 

Thanks,

Bill B

 


-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index= .html

 

 

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