X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.136.55.15] (HELO outbound-mail.dca.untd.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with SMTP id 2367330 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:02:30 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.55.15; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from Penny (70-59-129-110.ptld.qwest.net [70.59.129.110]) by smtpout04.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABDSJQ52ASWDP72 for (sender ); Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <542CE9EB0266460CABA04711CD5DA952@Penny> From: "Al Wick" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:01:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0238_01C805E7.6E9B12A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6000.16480 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 X-ContentStamp: 40:20:172351923 X-MAIL-INFO:115ef71af7ab9afaabdadadeda9afa8a0277bb07ca43373f73e3bb77dfea8b0b8b1e276e1ea3a3aea3276eeb07b773c3ce5eca63e7df73b77bc373ea6b6a635f9303cb5b9ee74b4bba3ee3833b2e87efba3fef375f2f0203ef7bee7ad73e7b03027baf7b4e0eab6f674b23babfba2b3e4337cacf433be37eab0afefbbb3f335a2af7dabb1a7f771aabae13dedbf33ba72adf638b5b734fda4f0b2e93fa6b8acaf39e5f5f1e17a38b3e0fc7d7673adfea0b9e7fa3270f2f6f234edeebb36f234ebf4b4b2faa1f2f3b X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkIFi0agtFuGHMlpWRBxgmHuzzXcPkmcqhw== X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 10.181.42.34|smtpout04.vgs.untd.com|smtpout04.vgs.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0238_01C805E7.6E9B12A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've found it's key to test theories to see how significant they are.=20 I can think of a simple test to measure just how significant the "pack = the sys with coolant" is on aircraft. Take "packed" system, operate it = long enough to heat soak it. Then record your temp at some constant = power setting. You want a temp that's higher than the thermostat temp, = so that you are measuring the efficiency of system, not the ability of = thermostat to control.=20 Then head back to the hangar, add two cups of air, and remeasure.=20 The delta T is your measure of significance.=20 =20 I would find some numbers fascinating myself.=20 -al wick ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:28 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:08:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a = compression gas leak? I never see any air.=20 To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the = cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with = compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles=E2=80=A6How do you = check a rotary? I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20 There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is = higher than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine = off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above = 250*?? =20 Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys=E2=80=A6 =20 Bill B It is extremely difficult to remove all of the air from a rotary = engines cooling system. It is also extremely important. If air is under = the pressure cap in a static situation, it will remix with other coolant = when the engine is at speed. The coolant moves very quickly through the = system. The coolant volume appears to increase slightly because much of = the air is reintroduced into the water. This coolant then becomes a poor = conductor of heat. You need the anti foaming agent in Antifreeze. Just a = bit, perhaps 10%. The system with the relief cap right on the radiator = or filler point, starts to offload coolant as soon as the engine is = started. It is in hydraulic lock, and has a small volume. The actual = boiling point calculated for this coolant makes no difference at all. = The cap opens a bit when the trip pressure is attained, the pressure = drops to 22 PSI or whatever for your cap, and a bit more heating trips = the cap again. It is exactly the same as most cars. So, at first in each heat cycle, there may be no correlation between = coolant temperature, and the actual amount of coolant dumped by the cap. = This is only true closer to a constant operating temperature. And then = pressure may be alarmingly unstable with power changes. The accumulator = system makes pressure rock solid.=20 Make the pressure cap into a filler cap, sealing only the top lip of = the radiator or filling port. Connect only a bleed hose and run it to = the bottom of a recovery bottle, and put the pressure relief cap on that = bottle. Keep the bottle about 1/3 full. Note after several heat cycles, = the amount of water you need to add to keep that bottle 1/3 full is = reduced each time. Once all of the air is out of the cooling system, no = more coolant need be added to the bottle.=20 Heating and cooling of the system, makes sweeping changes in coolant = volume. The air cushion in the bottle acts as an accumulator (used in = thousands of aircraft) to maintain a constant pressure and coolant = supply. Race cars use a Rolairtrol or spin bottle in the hose from the top of = the engine to the radiator. Water enters the bottle at about half height = on a tangent and adds a spinning motion. Water leaves through a center = hole at the bottom.=20 Trapped air pops to the top of the bottle and that is plumbed to the = bottom of the accumulator as above.=20 You used to get the plans for this thing when you buy a Cosworth race = engine. Does Cosworth know something you don't?=20 Anyway, after about three heat cycles (operating temperature and back = to room temperature) the coolant system will be solid coolant with all = of the air removed. It will not be hydraulically locked against the cap. It will have the relief cap pressure, and will hold that for as long = as the engine is hot.=20 I have a Shrader valve installed in my accumulator tank, and before I = start the engine I charge that bottle with compressed air until the cap = relieves at 22 PSI. Now I know it has pressure, and I know it has 22 = PSI. This was the stock system on all Mazda cars in the 70s. I didn't = invent it.=20 It is unlikely that you have leaking compression seals, unless there = is coolant blowing out of your makeup tank, or coolant is running out of = your exhaust system after shutdown.=20 My recovery bottle is mounted where the passenger foot well would have = been. Even with the bottom of the engine. So long as the hose ID is less = than 1/4" and the hose enters the bottle on the bottom of the coolant = supply, it matters not at all where that bottle is located. There is a = money back guarantee with this system.=20 Lynn E. Hanover=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. -Al Wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam = timing.=20 Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, = Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment = info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0238_01C805E7.6E9B12A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
 I've found it's key to test theories to see how significant = they are.=20
 
I can think of a simple test to measure just how significant the = "pack the=20 sys with coolant" is on aircraft. Take "packed" system, operate it long = enough=20 to heat soak it. Then record your temp at some constant power setting. = You want=20 a temp that's higher than the thermostat temp, so that you are measuring = the=20 efficiency of system, not the ability of thermostat to control.
Then head back to the hangar, add two cups of air, and remeasure. =
 
The delta T is your measure of significance.
 
I would find some numbers fascinating myself.
 
-al wick
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, = 2007 7:28=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Coolant Water=20 Pressure

In a message dated 10/3/2007 9:08:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = bbradburry@bellsouth.net=20 writes:

I think = that I=20 would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compression gas = leak? =20 I never see any air.

To check = a piston=20 engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and=20 pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air and = check the=20 radiator for air bubbles=E2=80=A6How do you check a=20 rotary?

I will = check the=20 pressure sender against a mechanical gage. =20

There is = obviously=20 a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher than it should = be=20 until just ready to boil.  I shut the engine off at 210*, and = at 22+=20 lbs, the boiling point should be well above=20 250*??

 

Thanks = for the=20 suggestions of where to look, = guys=E2=80=A6

 

Bill=20 B

It is extremely difficult to remove all of the air from a rotary = engines=20 cooling system. It is also extremely important. If air is under the = pressure=20 cap in a static situation, it will remix with other coolant when the = engine is=20 at speed. The coolant moves very quickly through the system. The = coolant=20 volume appears to increase slightly because much of the air is = reintroduced=20 into the water. This coolant then becomes a poor conductor of heat. = You need=20 the anti foaming agent in Antifreeze. Just a bit, perhaps 10%. The = system with=20 the relief cap right on the radiator or filler point, starts to = offload=20 coolant as soon as the engine is started. It is in hydraulic lock, and = has a=20 small volume. The actual boiling point calculated for this coolant = makes no=20 difference at all. The cap opens a bit when the trip pressure is = attained, the=20 pressure drops to 22 PSI or whatever for your cap, and a bit more = heating=20 trips the cap again. It is exactly the same as most cars.
So, at first in each heat cycle, there may be no correlation = between=20 coolant temperature, and the actual amount of coolant dumped by the = cap. This=20 is only true closer to a constant operating temperature. And then = pressure may=20 be alarmingly unstable with power changes. The accumulator system = makes=20 pressure rock solid. 
 
 
Make the pressure cap into a filler cap, sealing only the top lip = of the=20 radiator or filling port. Connect only a  bleed hose and run = it to=20 the bottom of a recovery bottle, and put the pressure relief cap on = that=20 bottle. Keep the bottle about 1/3 full. Note after several heat = cycles, the=20 amount of water you need to add to keep that bottle 1/3 full is = reduced each=20 time. Once all of the air is out of the cooling system, no more = coolant need=20 be added to the bottle.
 
Heating and cooling of the system, makes sweeping changes in = coolant=20 volume. The air cushion in the bottle acts as an accumulator (used in=20 thousands of aircraft) to maintain a constant pressure and coolant=20 supply.
 
Race cars use a Rolairtrol or spin bottle in the hose from the = top of the=20 engine to the radiator. Water enters the bottle at about half height = on a=20 tangent and adds a spinning motion. Water leaves through a center hole = at the=20 bottom.
Trapped air pops to the top of the bottle and that is plumbed to = the=20 bottom of the accumulator as above.
You used to get the plans for this thing when you buy a Cosworth = race=20 engine. Does Cosworth know something you don't? 
 
Anyway, after about three heat cycles (operating temperature and = back to=20 room temperature) the coolant system will be solid coolant with all of = the air=20 removed. It will not be hydraulically locked against the cap.
It will have the relief cap pressure, and will hold that for as = long as=20 the engine is hot.
 
I have a Shrader valve installed in my accumulator tank, and = before I=20 start the engine I charge that bottle with compressed air until the = cap=20 relieves at 22 PSI. Now I know it has pressure, and I know it has 22=20 PSI.
 
This was the stock system on all Mazda cars in the 70s. I didn't = invent=20 it.
 
It is unlikely that you have leaking compression seals, unless = there is=20 coolant blowing out of your makeup tank, or coolant is running out of = your=20 exhaust system after shutdown.
 
My recovery bottle is mounted where the passenger foot well would = have=20 been. Even with the bottom of the engine. So long as the hose ID is = less than=20 1/4" and the hose enters the bottle on the bottom of the coolant = supply, it=20 matters not at all where that bottle is located. There is a money back = guarantee with this system. 
 
Lynn E. Hanover 



See what's new at AOL.com=20 and Make AOL Your Homepage.
-Al Wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve lift=20 and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours from=20 Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, = Risk=20 assessment info:
htt= p://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
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