X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.226] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2366992 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:24:59 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.226; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so3673649wxd for ; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:24:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=QaTj0TfZIGvyKeHcuwsAdgtFp7XhhC1gQ8vcK5rIdac=; b=ZHDV+STIsWaiPXfrWPyzN1kkge3ZldU068DiwzvbmF5tz8SBNdhbgDg/VuSCs4pjB8pOAQ29LmiycOgwgL0W4+z2Ek+D5Vt/rpBcxWMW2eHtxtlgfzMOUiLS5XKCGLZWKgYi1GB/UIm/LG+nvHnnSbKoBAcRGbsIvBUHPPeR6N0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=R395tP6WNpZTPWLkR9vJgvHFMjPffTbZvP5nyJ7RRiUlEQJepsobAvRP4nZ5RuRvSLXuFfgzNQOUp8JDHAw6xtvPIHI7T0Ysu61PTBFvMJj/TlmvdxGX6Bjr8jFAfVyAiynErvFqSlLNVTFaBAxQxb+38DPpvenCyUDLnht6BVQ= Received: by 10.90.86.10 with SMTP id j10mr201540agb.1191446661398; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.35.16 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 14:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0710031424w62ec2300o554b3735530e64e8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:24:21 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23546_24297634.1191446661386" References: ------=_Part_23546_24297634.1191446661386 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bill, I've recently been bitten by the same thing, only with my coolant sensors. Take the time, then you'll know for sure that what the EM-2 is displaying i= s correct. Its worth the time & effort, so you'll know. Using spare fittings, I built a test manifold using an air chuck to connect to my air compressor, a pressure regulator (integrated into the air compressor) to adjust pressure, and a welding gauge for an accurate readout. Screw your sensor into a 1/8 npt fitting and compare the reading on the gauge with the EM-2, calibrate as needed. Mark On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > No silly questions possible, Mark. No, I haven't. It is the sensor that > came with the EM-2 and when there is no pressure, it shows zero. My > assumption (yeah, I know..) is that it is set to work with the EM-2. I p= lan > to put a mechanical gage in to see how close it is, but will need someone= to > read it while I man the controls=85:>) > > I do think that it is pretty close tho=85 > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:26 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure > > > > Bill, > > > > Silly question, but have you calibrated your pressure sensor? > > > > Mark S. > > > > On 10/3/07, *Bill Bradburry* wrote: > > I think that I would see air under the radiator cap if I had a compressio= n > gas leak? I never see any air. > > To check a piston engine for head gasket leaks, you would put the cylinde= r > at TDC and pressurize the cylinder to about 150 lbs with compressed air a= nd > check the radiator for air bubbles=85How do you check a rotary? > > I will check the pressure sender against a mechanical gage. > > There is obviously a heating problem, but I think the pressure is higher > than it should be until just ready to boil. I shut the engine off at 210= *, > and at 22+ lbs, the boiling point should be well above 250*?? > > > > Thanks for the suggestions of where to look, guys=85 > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *= On > Behalf Of *Al p Wick > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:49 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Coolant Water Pressure > > > > Your coolant reservoir should be above engine. > > > > 1) If it is, remove two cups of air from the reservoir. Then repeat your > test. > > 2) If you now see pressure rise above 22 psi within 5 minutes of cold > start, you clearly have compression gases leaking into cooling system or = bad > gage. > > > > 3) Air in the block is 10 times more significant than any other cooling > factor. Make darn sure you don't have any. It causes local boiling, high > temps, strange behavior. > > > > Operating with two cups of air under cap is an important safety and > diagnosis advantage. Everyone should do it. With that two cups, you only = see > 22 psi if you have a genuine problem. You only see 0 psi if you have genu= ine > problem. The pressure is then a very fast and reliable indicator of syste= m > integrity. So two cups of air has no negative effect on system efficiency= , > just a substantial improvement in safety. Only time it could be a negativ= e > would be if your reservoir was way too small, way too low, or flowed way = too > much coolant. > > > > Since you describe high temps AND pressure, I suspect you have temperatur= e > problem. > > > > I deliberately overheated my engine many times so that I was intimate wit= h > pressure and temperature patterns. Then tested various concepts. Don't > recommend you do the same. > > > > -al wick > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:38:55 -0400 "Bill Bradburry" > writes: > > I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my cowl. I > seem to be getting very high coolant pressures. I can only run the engin= e > about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*. My water pressur= e > is at 27 Lbs at that time. I only have a 22 Lb radiator cap, so I assume > that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but I have not confirmed that. = My > oil temp has never exceeded about 165*. It might have gone higher if I > could have run longer??? > > > > This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled. Since this is a > closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to the expansion= of > the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some comments that have be= en > made from time to time. I remember something that Tracy said about his > pressure would build for a time, then go to zero. It seems to me that th= e > pressure should correlate to the temp pretty closely since it is a closed > system?? > > > > Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressure? It > seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the positive si= de > of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, so the net eff= ect > of the pump should be close to zero?? > > > > Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so I did not > have to tear it down. As a result, I am somewhat in the dark as to how t= he > water flows through the system. Could someone help me with that? I had = to > remove the thermostat tower for height clearance , so I made an adapter > plate that takes water from the top outlet of the pump and sends it to th= e > radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it returns to the lower > inlet of the pump. > > > > Thanks, > > Bill B > > > > > -al wick > Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam > timing. > Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, > Oregon > Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: > http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html > > > ------=_Part_23546_24297634.1191446661386 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Bill,
I've recently been bitten by the same thing, only with my coolant = sensors.  Take the time, then you'll know for sure that what = the EM-2 is displaying is correct.  Its worth the time & effort, s= o you'll know. =20
 
Using spare fittings, I built a test manifold using an air chuck to co= nnect to my air compressor, a pressure regulator (integrated into= the air compressor) to adjust pressure, and a welding gauge for an accurat= e readout.  Screw your sensor into a 1/8 npt fitting and compare the r= eading on the gauge with the EM-2, calibrate as needed.
 
Mark

 
On 10/3/07, = Bill Bradburry <bbradbur= ry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

No silly questions possible, Mark.&= nbsp; No, I haven't. It is the sensor that came with the EM-2 and when ther= e is no pressure, it shows zero.  My assumption (yeah, I know..) is th= at it is set to work with the EM-2.  I plan to put a mechanical gage i= n to see how close it is, but will need someone to read it while I man the = controls=85:>)

I do think that it is pretty close = tho=85

 

Bill B

 

On 10/3/07, Bill Bradburry < bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

I think that I would see air under = the radiator cap if I had a compression gas leak?  I never see any air= .

To check a piston engine for head g= asket leaks, you would put the cylinder at TDC and pressurize the cylinder = to about 150 lbs with compressed air and check the radiator for air bubbles= =85How do you check a rotary?=20

I will check the pressure sender ag= ainst a mechanical gage. 

There is obviously a heating proble= m, but I think the pressure is higher than it should be until just ready to= boil.  I shut the engine off at 210*, and at 22+ lbs, the boiling poi= nt should be well above 250*??=20

 

Thanks for the suggestions of where= to look, guys=85

 

Bill B

 

bbradburry@bellsouth.net> writes:

I just recently got my Renesis started again after finishing my= cowl.  I seem to be getting very high coolant pressures.  I can = only run the engine about 10-15 minutes before hitting the redline at 210*.=   My water pressure is at 27 Lbs at that time.  I only have a 22 = Lb radiator cap, so I assume that I am blowing into the recovery tank, but = I have not confirmed that.  My oil temp has never exceeded about 165*.=   It might have gone higher if I could have run longer???=20

 

This whole water pressure thing has me a little baffled.  = Since this is a closed system and the only way pressure can build is due to= the expansion of the coolant after heating???, I am confused by some comme= nts that have been made from time to time.  I remember something that = Tracy said about his pressure would build for a time, then go to zero. = ; It seems to me that the pressure should correlate to the temp pretty clos= ely since it is a closed system??=20

 

Can someone enlighten me a little on the science of this pressu= re?  It seems to me that there could be some pressure build up on the = positive side of the pump, but it would go negative on the suction side, so= the net effect of the pump should be close to zero??=20

 

Also, my Renesis had only 1800 miles on it when I bought it, so= I did not have to tear it down.  As a result, I am somewhat in the da= rk as to how the water flows through the system.  Could someone help m= e with that?  I had to remove the thermostat tower for height clearanc= e , so I made an adapter plate that takes water from the top outlet of the = pump and sends it to the radiator (double pass), then from the radiator, it= returns to the lower inlet of the pump.=20

 

Thanks,

Bill B

http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html