X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.231] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2351310 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:37:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.162.231; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id n29so1128873nzf for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:36:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=OL+xeCX2DJdmKEZzAZmCwpszvtavYfHqTG4G2MdELdY=; b=GUsGgK9lE23IzuzZaDvnolO5odCxJ7iIfzXbMA9eSRbiUTZDmYt2tfJ/7JT7Cd/L8juTxQuMe0I4WVScpzh/IkG2pC4CVLikKZSAjqAShQEB7bywzHydURorbJslqbeAs/8DyOn4gRWO0ttievQJnTLkx2q6cHnTnpbYi6lKnsc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=nO2rfCONX6HphDUbvGOhlYUctck/KlIHU2SWre3WsrD2JqJP1w4DWqfozqqF8hbWLj2NHz1NhggBj/Pw8lgmXbwK6kIgVxJMl0hmbzijgl3ELyAlVWeNVbsooyHeDa7PYNsl8NNc3B1lvwe31DDbqocmWeC/U+g5pl2hBFo/MSE= Received: by 10.142.222.21 with SMTP id u21mr428099wfg.1190748998024; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.143.28.1 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0709251236i3691db2bn5afbe59daf99f183@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:36:37 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the guys that don't give up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3795_33364685.1190748997991" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 2abdcdce404a57c7 ------=_Part_3795_33364685.1190748997991 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline OK Mark, will do as soon as I test the new relay which should happen in nex= t few days. Tracy On 9/25/07, Mark Steitle wrote: > > Tracy, > While you were gone I went ahead and ordered the solid state relay we > discussed. So, whenever you have the schematic done, could you shoot it = off > to me? I would like to install the new solid state relay asap. > > Thanks, > Mark > > > On 9/24/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > > > That Leading / Trailing ignition disable responce is still a mystery to > > me Al. I finally got my 20B installation going well enough to test thi= s and > > I got the same (expected) results as on my 13B and Renesis (more rpm dr= op on > > leading disable at any rpm). > > > > OTOH, I could not get a smooth staging transition to save my life. > > Investigation showed I was getting terrible electrical noise as the sta= ging > > relay switched with much (normal) contact bounce. Since I didn't have = any > > diode clamps in the staging circuit, there was a lot of noise generated= by > > switching the inductive injector load. It was noisy enough to cause my= EM2 > > (and possibly the EC2) to reset causing a lot of missing and occasional > > backfire during the staging process. Made me wonder if this was the ca= use > > of the data corruptions you were having in you EC2 map table. I also > > thought it might be the cause of Marks' high rpm miss but his problem > > turned out to be that he made the CAS mounting bracket out of ferrous m= etal > > instead of aluminum (he used the Renesis crank sensor). Glad he stuck= with > > it and found this problem because I never could have guessed what it wa= s. > > > > I don't know why Mark and Al are not having the staging problem that I > > am but this is the nature of alternative engines where there are no two > > installations alike. In the future I am changing the 20B staging relay = to a > > solid state relay that has no contact bounce and adding some clamping d= iodes > > to suppress the inductive noise. This should make the EC2 20B controll= er > > less installation dependant. > > > > Still no 'Plug 'n Play' in the alternative engine game :>) > > > > Tracy (still recovering from 36 hr drive back from Colorado) > > > > > > On 9/17/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't seldom give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this > > > time. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > OK; Mark; (or anybody). Since we both have 20Bs, and both use the EC= 2 > > > controller, maybe you have a clue for this one. I've brought this up = here > > > before, but no solution. > > > > > > I have all the latest updates on the EC2, and I have double checked > > > the static timing set at 35o BTDC. From that point on the EC2 is > > > handling the timing curve with rpm and MAP. > > > > > > At lower power levels, disabling the leading ignition clearly has a > > > larger effect than disabling the trailing =96 as one would expect. A= t > > > somewhere around 18" MAP, (don't know right now what rpm that is, may= be > > > close to 4000) the effect is about equal when disabling either set. = At > > > higher power levels, there is a larger effect of disabling the traili= ng than > > > the leading. That troubles me. I think the leading should always ha= ve a > > > greater effect. It makes me wonder about the timing; or if something= else > > > is wrong. > > > > > > I have in the past tried varying the timing 2 or 3 steps while at > > > power, but couldn't discern a change in rpm greater than the normal > > > variation in the readout. Tracy sent me the XL spreadsheet with the > > > timing curve data, but I haven't yet figured a safe way of checking i= t with > > > that prop spinning close by. > > > > > > Does your installation exhibit the same behavior? Is there some > > > explanation for this? What test should I perform? > > > > > > One thing that occurs to me is that Tracy measures MAP out before the > > > runners. I measure MAP at the manifold, downstream from intake plenu= m and > > > three short runners and the 3-barrel TWM throttle body. At WOT my MA= P is > > > not atmospheric pressure =96 it is maybe 2-3" HG less. I can't quite= see how > > > that is an issue; but maybe someone else with a TWM TB setup with the= MAP > > > port downstream would know. > > > > > > > > > > > > Other than that I'm very pleased with the new mixture correction tabl= e > > > setup for the 20B. Much less tuning and seamless transistion between= tables > > > and through the stage point. Probably the pulse clamping and injecto= r > > > isolation diodes are part of that. > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_3795_33364685.1190748997991 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
OK Mark, will do as soon as I test the new relay which should happen i= n next few days.
 
Tracy

 
On 9/25/07, = Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Tracy,
While you were gone I went ahead and ordered the solid state relay we = discussed.  So, whenever you have the schematic done, could you shoot = it off to me?  I would like to install the new solid state relay asap.=
 
Thanks,
Mark
 
 
On 9/24/07, = Tracy Crook <tracy@rotar= yaviation.com > wrote:=20
That Leading / Trailing ignition disable responce is still a mystery t= o me Al.  I finally got my 20B installation going well enough to test = this and I got the same (expected) results as on my 13B and Renesis (more r= pm drop on leading disable at any rpm).=20
 
OTOH, I could not get a smooth staging transition to save my life.&nbs= p; Investigation showed I was getting terrible electrical noise as the stag= ing relay switched with much (normal) contact bounce.  Since I didn= 9;t have any diode clamps in the staging circuit, there was a lot of noise = generated by switching the inductive injector load.  It was noisy enou= gh to cause my EM2 (and possibly the EC2) to reset causing a lot of missing= and occasional backfire during the staging process.  Made me wonder i= f this was the cause of the data corruptions you were having in you EC2 map= table.  I also thought it might be the cause of Marks' =  high rpm miss but his problem turned out to be that he made the CAS m= ounting bracket out of ferrous metal instead of aluminum  (he used the= Renesis crank sensor).  Glad he stuck with it and found this problem = because I never could have guessed what it was.=20
 
I don't know why Mark and Al are not having the staging = problem that I am but this is the nature of alternative engines where there= are no two installations alike. In the future I am changing the 20B s= taging relay to a solid state relay that has no contact bounce and adding s= ome clamping diodes to suppress the inductive noise.  This should make= the EC2 20B controller less installation dependant. =20
 
Still no  'Plug 'n Play' in the alternative engine ga= me :>)
 
Tracy  (still recovering from 36 hr drive back from Colorado)
=
 
On 9/17/07, = Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote:=20


= I don't seldom give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this time= .

Mark

OK; Mark; (or anybody). &= nbsp;Since we both have 20Bs, and both use the EC2 controller, maybe you ha= ve a clue for this one. I've brought this up here before, but no soluti= on.=20

I have all the latest updates o= n the EC2, and I have double checked the static timing set at 35o BTDC.  From that point on the EC2 is handling the timing curve with = rpm and MAP.=20

At lower power levels, disablin= g the leading ignition clearly has a larger effect than disabling the trail= ing =96 as one would expect.  At somewhere around 18" MAP, (don&#= 39;t know right now what rpm that is, maybe close to 4000) the effect is ab= out equal when disabling either set.  At higher power levels, there is= a larger effect of disabling the trailing than the leading.  That tro= ubles me.  I think the leading should always have a greater effect.&nb= sp; It makes me wonder about the timing; or if something else is wrong.=20

I have in the past tried varyin= g the timing 2 or 3 steps while at power, but couldn't discern a change= in rpm greater than the normal variation in the readout. =20 Tracy= sent me the XL spreadsheet with the timing curve data, but I haven't y= et figured a safe way of checking it with that prop spinning close by.

Does your installation exhibit = the same behavior? = Is there some explanation for this?  What test should I perform?

One thing that occurs to me is = that Tracy measures MAP o= ut before the runners.  I measure MAP at the manifold, downstream from= intake plenum and three short runners and the 3-barrel TWM throttle body.&= nbsp; At WOT my MAP is not atmospheric pressure =96 it is maybe 2-3" H= G less.  I can't quite see how that is an issue; but maybe someone= else with a TWM TB setup with the MAP port downstream would know.=20

 

Other than that I'm very pl= eased with the new mixture correction table setup for the 20B.  Much l= ess tuning and seamless transistion between tables and through the stage po= int.  Probably the pulse clamping and injector isolation diodes are pa= rt of that.=20



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