X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.234] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2350549 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 08:13:51 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.249.82.234; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1282746wxd for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=n43rFmOFUG+3xBV/eb5XdS9EGDg/G8VTKjyWLvAi8Y0=; b=EizUTYtUaD1nYWMoslqe88Htva2fDO/SUgAPqgZ+xGCu2iNvkJdu5hAlejcENv3EgbCGJ8EtrN2g6rll4uyl5aUuOou0zl5gpL+sY0oyKVqEq45OrcDd2SM8rUeUyAIdTI9QJ3EIMDluHny8dqMp4eEI8nbT7+it6/6Bf7xpXP0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=hnSqarXF2RrQvOphuXm9NWFha0S5/a0/gcYS33ruRe82tYxsF/oRxWTMIN0aYG/fGVQA7Kzn2TUMSjmSHSx1JpPHTEc3XvQVQeMZN7rx5n7L3OYB9Ci1QbPPbkjZr+/TiOrtatRHMZ9H89sPIXtVSTdHkDQQxCPUzsNXWBoplis= Received: by 10.90.87.5 with SMTP id k5mr5560270agb.1190722392421; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.35.16 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 05:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0709250513n28befb8ahdca5aec2d11a9040@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:13:12 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: One for the guys that don't give up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1365_27474443.1190722392408" References: ------=_Part_1365_27474443.1190722392408 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Tracy, While you were gone I went ahead and ordered the solid state relay we discussed. So, whenever you have the schematic done, could you shoot it of= f to me? I would like to install the new solid state relay asap. Thanks, Mark On 9/24/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > That Leading / Trailing ignition disable responce is still a mystery to m= e > Al. I finally got my 20B installation going well enough to test this and= I > got the same (expected) results as on my 13B and Renesis (more rpm drop o= n > leading disable at any rpm). > > OTOH, I could not get a smooth staging transition to save my life. > Investigation showed I was getting terrible electrical noise as the stagi= ng > relay switched with much (normal) contact bounce. Since I didn't have an= y > diode clamps in the staging circuit, there was a lot of noise generated b= y > switching the inductive injector load. It was noisy enough to cause my E= M2 > (and possibly the EC2) to reset causing a lot of missing and occasional > backfire during the staging process. Made me wonder if this was the caus= e > of the data corruptions you were having in you EC2 map table. I also > thought it might be the cause of Marks' high rpm miss but his problem > turned out to be that he made the CAS mounting bracket out of ferrous met= al > instead of aluminum (he used the Renesis crank sensor). Glad he stuck w= ith > it and found this problem because I never could have guessed what it was. > > I don't know why Mark and Al are not having the staging problem that I am > but this is the nature of alternative engines where there are no two > installations alike. In the future I am changing the 20B staging relay to= a > solid state relay that has no contact bounce and adding some clamping dio= des > to suppress the inductive noise. This should make the EC2 20B controller > less installation dependant. > > Still no 'Plug 'n Play' in the alternative engine game :>) > > Tracy (still recovering from 36 hr drive back from Colorado) > > > On 9/17/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > > > > > I don't seldom give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this time= . > > > > Mark > > > > OK; Mark; (or anybody). Since we both have 20Bs, and both use the EC2 > > controller, maybe you have a clue for this one. I've brought this up he= re > > before, but no solution. > > > > I have all the latest updates on the EC2, and I have double checked the > > static timing set at 35o BTDC. From that point on the EC2 is handling > > the timing curve with rpm and MAP. > > > > At lower power levels, disabling the leading ignition clearly has a > > larger effect than disabling the trailing =96 as one would expect. At > > somewhere around 18" MAP, (don't know right now what rpm that is, maybe > > close to 4000) the effect is about equal when disabling either set. At > > higher power levels, there is a larger effect of disabling the trailing= than > > the leading. That troubles me. I think the leading should always have= a > > greater effect. It makes me wonder about the timing; or if something e= lse > > is wrong. > > > > I have in the past tried varying the timing 2 or 3 steps while at power= , > > but couldn't discern a change in rpm greater than the normal variation = in > > the readout. Tracy sent me the XL spreadsheet with the timing curve > > data, but I haven't yet figured a safe way of checking it with that pro= p > > spinning close by. > > > > Does your installation exhibit the same behavior? Is there some > > explanation for this? What test should I perform? > > > > One thing that occurs to me is that Tracy measures MAP out before the > > runners. I measure MAP at the manifold, downstream from intake plenum = and > > three short runners and the 3-barrel TWM throttle body. At WOT my MAP = is > > not atmospheric pressure =96 it is maybe 2-3" HG less. I can't quite s= ee how > > that is an issue; but maybe someone else with a TWM TB setup with the M= AP > > port downstream would know. > > > > > > > > Other than that I'm very pleased with the new mixture correction table > > setup for the 20B. Much less tuning and seamless transistion between t= ables > > and through the stage point. Probably the pulse clamping and injector > > isolation diodes are part of that. > > > > ------=_Part_1365_27474443.1190722392408 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Tracy,
While you were gone I went ahead and ordered the solid state relay we = discussed.  So, whenever you have the schematic done, could you shoot = it off to me?  I would like to install the new solid state relay asap.=
 
Thanks,
Mark
 
 
On 9/24/07, = Tracy Crook <tracy@rotar= yaviation.com> wrote:
That Leading / Trailing ignition disable responce is still a mystery t= o me Al.  I finally got my 20B installation going well enough to test = this and I got the same (expected) results as on my 13B and Renesis (more r= pm drop on leading disable at any rpm).=20
 
OTOH, I could not get a smooth staging transition to save my life.&nbs= p; Investigation showed I was getting terrible electrical noise as the stag= ing relay switched with much (normal) contact bounce.  Since I didn= 9;t have any diode clamps in the staging circuit, there was a lot of noise = generated by switching the inductive injector load.  It was noisy enou= gh to cause my EM2 (and possibly the EC2) to reset causing a lot of missing= and occasional backfire during the staging process.  Made me wonder i= f this was the cause of the data corruptions you were having in you EC2 map= table.  I also thought it might be the cause of Marks' =  high rpm miss but his problem turned out to be that he made the CAS m= ounting bracket out of ferrous metal instead of aluminum  (he used the= Renesis crank sensor).  Glad he stuck with it and found this problem = because I never could have guessed what it was.=20
 
I don't know why Mark and Al are not having the staging = problem that I am but this is the nature of alternative engines where there= are no two installations alike. In the future I am changing the 20B s= taging relay to a solid state relay that has no contact bounce and adding s= ome clamping diodes to suppress the inductive noise.  This should make= the EC2 20B controller less installation dependant. =20
 
Still no  'Plug 'n Play' in the alternative engine ga= me :>)
 
Tracy  (still recovering from 36 hr drive back from Colorado)
=
 
On 9/17/07, = Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote: =20


= I don't seldom give up on a problem, but I came awfully close this time= .

Mark

OK; Mark; (or anybody). &= nbsp;Since we both have 20Bs, and both use the EC2 controller, maybe you ha= ve a clue for this one. I've brought this up here before, but no soluti= on.=20

I have all the latest updates o= n the EC2, and I have double checked the static timing set at 35o BTDC.  From that point on the EC2 is handling the timing curve with = rpm and MAP.=20

At lower power levels, disablin= g the leading ignition clearly has a larger effect than disabling the trail= ing =96 as one would expect.  At somewhere around 18" MAP, (don&#= 39;t know right now what rpm that is, maybe close to 4000) the effect is ab= out equal when disabling either set.  At higher power levels, there is= a larger effect of disabling the trailing than the leading.  That tro= ubles me.  I think the leading should always have a greater effect.&nb= sp; It makes me wonder about the timing; or if something else is wrong.=20

I have in the past tried varyin= g the timing 2 or 3 steps while at power, but couldn't discern a change= in rpm greater than the normal variation in the readout. =20 Tracy= sent me the XL spreadsheet with the timing curve data, but I haven't y= et figured a safe way of checking it with that prop spinning close by.

Does your installation exhibit = the same behavior? = Is there some explanation for this?  What test should I perform?

One thing that occurs to me is = that Tracy measures MAP o= ut before the runners.  I measure MAP at the manifold, downstream from= intake plenum and three short runners and the 3-barrel TWM throttle body.&= nbsp; At WOT my MAP is not atmospheric pressure =96 it is maybe 2-3" H= G less.  I can't quite see how that is an issue; but maybe someone= else with a TWM TB setup with the MAP port downstream would know.=20

 

Other than that I'm very pl= eased with the new mixture correction table setup for the 20B.  Much l= ess tuning and seamless transistion between tables and through the stage po= int.  Probably the pulse clamping and injector isolation diodes are pa= rt of that.=20


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