X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTP id 2322110 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:40:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20070910114011.LKDF3965.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:40:11 +0000 Message-ID: <000b01c7f39f$6e7528b0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:40:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7F37D.E719AE70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7F37D.E719AE70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I used the coarse filter only before the EFI pumps and the facet pump is = between the tanks and the coarse filter. Unless the coarse filter is = filled with debris there is negligible pressure drop caused by this = filter. My EFI filters on the other hand are after the pumps. But, you = are quite right, you don't want any drops in line pressure that can lead = to vapor lock. Don't know why you don't want to pressurize the sump. The facet pump = only puts out approx 4-6 psi and I can attest, that additional pressure, = can squelch vapor locks between the facet pump and your EFI pumps. It = also helps compensate for the fact that the EFI pumps (as do any pumps) = lower the line pressure at their entrance. Maintaining pressure in = your fuel lines is one of the fundamental needs especially when the = lines are exposed to heat sources. The recent advent of "Returnless" fuel lines in automobiles relies on = managing line pressure to prevent vapor lock. Tracy Crook has = implemented such a system in his 20B powered RV-8 and at least on the = ground (he has not flown yet), it works fine. Any system that keeps = line pressure up above a certain point will work, any that permit it to = drop below a crucial level at any point will have problems. I agree with Al, that from a vapor lock safety standpoint having wet = pumps in the tanks and returning fuel to the larger tanks (as a heat = sink), have proven to the about the best approach. In my case, I did = not want high pressure lines in the cockpit, nor the complexity of = switching both main and return lines when switching tanks (there are = other alternates which do not require switching between tanks - line = intra tank transfers, etc). Like anything else there are trade offs to = any decision. =20 This is certainly one of the most (if not the most) crucial subsystems = in your engine installation along with ignition. Taking line pressure = measurements as Al Wick suggests is certainly a good idea - then as, Al = points out, you are dealing with a known rather than guessing and = hoping. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 9:44 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Ed,=20 You stated that you use Facet pumps, I suppose these are before the = in-line filter. My concern about using the filters before the efi fuel = pump is that there would be more flow restriction. Since I will be using = gravity fed sump tank (5-6 inch elevation difference and I don't want to = pressurize the sump tank), that vaporization could occur; hence I am = still thinking of a large surface screen in the sump tank (already have = screen wire over the strake tank outlets) to catch small stuff that = could shorten pump life, not necessarily plug up the pump. MSD claims to = be able to handle small particles better than the competition. Thinking = also of putting in a sight glass (Plexiglas) to observe tank behavior = and screen condition. Can Plexiglas hold up to auto gas? Oh yes, the sump tank will have a water catch sub-sump. Wendell (hope I'm making sense) I have opened up my coarse filter 6 times in 10 years. First time = had some small fragments of sealant used to close the tank. The next 5 = times nothing. Of course, a lot will depend on type of tank and quality = of fuel going into the tanks. I replace the EFI filters at each conditional inspection, cut the = old ones open and have never found anything in them either. But, I do = use 100LL aircraft quality gasoline - almost exclusively.. ED ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Ed, How often do you have to clean the filter? Wendell I have a fine wire mesh filter in an aluminum housing with An-6 = fittings on each end just before the fuel enters my header tank.. You = can unscrew one end to clean the mesh. However, been too long ago and I = find I never logged the part number on my fuel data sheet. But, here are the specific part numbers I use for the EFI = filters Fuel Filters: OEM Auto Fuel Injector Fuel Filters (Two in = Parallel) Type: AC GF - 481 Pkg: 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or equivalent) Fittings: 3/8 Saginaw to AN6 Adapter, "O" ring required Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 10:18 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Rob and Ed for the replys on the MSD fuel pumps.=20 Now; what kind of filter do you have ahead of the pump? = I'm thinking of using some fine mesh screen to make a filter inside the = sump tank. It will be hard to service but believe that one will prolong = pump life and possibly. stop a particle that could interupt fuel flow. = What size mesh is recommended? =20 Wendell =20 I have been using the MSD 2225 for about 20 hour with no = problem so far. Plenty of fuel pressure. Only problem is that it is not = threaded so I had to use the barbed nipples that come with the pump. How = bad can that be? Robert Bollinger FM1099 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7F37D.E719AE70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I used the coarse filter only before the EFI = pumps and the=20 facet pump is between the tanks and the coarse filter.  Unless the = coarse=20 filter is  filled with debris there is negligible pressure drop = caused by=20 this filter.  My EFI filters on the other hand are after the=20 pumps.  But, you are quite right, you don't want any drops in line = pressure=20 that can lead to vapor lock.
 
Don't know why you don't want to pressurize the=20 sump.  The facet pump only puts out approx 4-6 psi and I can = attest, that=20 additional pressure, can squelch vapor locks between the facet pump and = your EFI=20 pumps.  It also helps compensate for the fact that the EFI pumps = (as do any=20 pumps)   lower the line pressure at their = entrance.  =20 Maintaining pressure in your fuel lines is one of the fundamental needs=20 especially when the lines are exposed to heat sources.
 
The recent advent of "Returnless" fuel lines in=20 automobiles relies on managing line pressure to prevent vapor = lock. =20 Tracy Crook has implemented such a system in his 20B powered = RV-8 and=20 at least on the ground (he has not flown yet), it works fine.  = Any=20 system that keeps line pressure up above a certain point will work, any = that=20 permit it to drop below a crucial level at any point will have=20 problems.
 
I agree with Al, that from a vapor lock safety = standpoint=20 having wet pumps in the tanks and returning fuel to the larger = tanks (as a=20 heat sink), have proven to the about the best approach.  In my = case, I did=20 not want high pressure lines in the cockpit, nor the complexity of=20 switching both main and return lines when switching tanks (there are = other=20 alternates which do not require switching between tanks - line intra = tank=20 transfers, etc).  Like anything else there are trade offs to any=20 decision.    
 
This is certainly one of the most (if not the = most)=20 crucial subsystems in your engine installation along with = ignition.  Taking=20 line pressure measurements as Al Wick suggests is certainly a good idea = - then=20 as, Al points out, you are dealing with a known rather than guessing and = hoping.
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wendell = Voto=20
Sent: Sunday, September 09, = 2007 9:44=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

 

Ed,

You stated that you use Facet pumps, I suppose these = are=20 before the in-line filter. My concern about using the filters before = the efi=20 fuel pump is that there would be more flow restriction. Since I will = be using=20 gravity fed sump tank (5-6 inch elevation difference and I don't want = to=20 pressurize the sump tank), that vaporization could occur; hence I am = still=20 thinking of a large surface screen in the sump tank (already have = screen wire=20 over the strake tank outlets) to catch small stuff that could shorten = pump=20 life, not necessarily plug up the pump. MSD claims to be able to = handle small=20 particles better than the competition. Thinking also of putting in a = sight=20 glass (Plexiglas) to observe tank behavior and screen condition. Can = Plexiglas=20 hold up to auto gas?
Oh yes, the sump tank will have = a water=20 catch sub-sump.

Wendell (hope I'm making sense)

I have opened up my coarse filter 6 times in = 10=20 years.  First time had some small fragments of sealant used to = close=20 the tank.  The next 5 times nothing.  Of course, a lot = will depend=20 on type of tank and quality of fuel going into the = tanks.
 
I replace the EFI filters at each = conditional=20 inspection, cut the old ones open and have never found anything in = them=20 either.  But, I do use 100LL aircraft quality gasoline - almost = exclusively..
 
ED
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, September 09, = 2007 4:00=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

Thanks Ed,
 
How often do you have to clean the=20 filter?
 
Wendell
 

I have a fine wire mesh filter in an = aluminum=20 housing with An-6 fittings on each end just before the fuel = enters my=20 header tank..  You can unscrew one end to clean the = mesh. =20 However, been too long ago and I find I never logged the part = number on=20 my fuel data sheet.
 
But, here are the specific part numbers = I use for=20 the EFI filters
 

Fuel Filters: OEM Auto Fuel Injector Fuel Filters (Two in = Parallel)

Type: AC GF - 481 Pkg: 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or=20 equivalent)

Fittings: 3/8 Saginaw to AN6 Adapter, "O" ring = required

 

Ed

----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, = September 08,=20 2007 10:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: need=20 help

 
Thanks Rob and Ed for the replys = on the MSD=20 fuel pumps.
 
Now;  what kind of filter do = you have=20 ahead of the pump?  I'm thinking of using some fine = mesh screen=20 to make a filter inside the sump tank.  It will be hard = to=20 service but believe that one will prolong pump life and = possibly.=20 stop a particle that could interupt fuel flow.  What = size mesh=20 is recommended?  
 
Wendell

 
I have been using the MSD = 2225 for=20 about 20 hour with no problem so far. Plenty of fuel = pressure. Only=20 problem is that it is not threaded so I had to use the = barbed=20 nipples that come with the pump. How bad can that = be?
 
Robert Bollinger
FM1099=20 MUM
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)472-7000 = ex2068
(641)919-3213=20 cell
rob@mum.edu
 
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