X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from m12.lax.untd.com ([64.136.30.75] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with SMTP id 2321554 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 09 Sep 2007 22:15:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.136.30.75; envelope-from=alwick@juno.com Received: from m12.lax.untd.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by m12.lax.untd.com with SMTP id AABDQKLDAAZDFSDS for (sender ); Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-UNTD-OriginStamp: L941HVjjYzDhN3itp//mkBYPThQbYhjFONNK8PqXXI43gZjWuAiRJQ== Received: (from alwick@juno.com) by m12.lax.untd.com (jqueuemail) id MW8959M9; Sun, 09 Sep 2007 19:13:34 PDT To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 19:13:26 -0700 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Message-ID: <20070909.191332.2812.3.alwick@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.49 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=--__JNP_000_66b5.5e69.3977 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 8-6,12-13,18-19,24-25,27,29-34,36,38-42,44-46,57-59,63-64,67-84,88-106,111-115,118-130,132,134-135,136-32767 From: al p wick X-ContentStamp: 41:20:1361395291 X-MAIL-INFO:1e6d6d7df4c5cdb98464857dfd8565f5dda599851d313d79f41d99a51da01dd0d55950f96da47dd17d14f49465494194b9c551592470c4e459598059010990d9295990158dd9014981b944807475110d2100d9002084257140694981edf5f5a9303511f4954579f9f0744d70b535e009a49185e1e1d1 X-UNTD-Peer-Info: 127.0.0.1|localhost|m12.lax.untd.com|alwick@juno.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_66b5.5e69.3977 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Put a pressure gage between tank and pump. This will measure how much safety margin you have. It's that pressure drop at pump inlet that's your risk item. Compare that pressure to results from Hodges fuel tester and wham, you know exactly how close you are. This is a key safety concept...don't let yourself describe fuel system as good or bad....measure it! I know guys who used clear fuel lines so they could see the fuel turn to vapor, but you only see things when it's too late. Pressure gage tells you how far your design is from vapor lock. That way you know you will be safe when other factors affect vapor point. Like pump temp, fuel type, flight attitude. All filter screens that get plugged are from one cause....using vacuum cleaner to remove debris. Ordinary vacuum cleaner displaces too much air. It causes 80% of the debris near nozzle to shoot off to corners of tank. If you just put duct tape over most of the nozzle, then you have zero risk of debris. Glad you are concerned about pressure drop at inlet. You definitely don't want to add fine filter there. I just added wet fuel pumps to my plane. One of the safest approaches you can use. Details on my web site. -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:44:24 -0500 "Wendell Voto" writes: Ed, You stated that you use Facet pumps, I suppose these are before the in-line filter. My concern about using the filters before the efi fuel pump is that there would be more flow restriction. Since I will be using gravity fed sump tank (5-6 inch elevation difference and I don't want to pressurize the sump tank), that vaporization could occur; hence I am still thinking of a large surface screen in the sump tank (already have screen wire over the strake tank outlets) to catch small stuff that could shorten pump life, not necessarily plug up the pump. MSD claims to be able to handle small particles better than the competition. Thinking also of putting in a sight glass (Plexiglas) to observe tank behavior and screen condition. Can Plexiglas hold up to auto gas? Oh yes, the sump tank will have a water catch sub-sump. Wendell (hope I'm making sense) I have opened up my coarse filter 6 times in 10 years. First time had some small fragments of sealant used to close the tank. The next 5 times nothing. Of course, a lot will depend on type of tank and quality of fuel going into the tanks. I replace the EFI filters at each conditional inspection, cut the old ones open and have never found anything in them either. But, I do use 100LL aircraft quality gasoline - almost exclusively.. ED ----- Original Message ----- From: Wendell Voto To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Ed, How often do you have to clean the filter? Wendell I have a fine wire mesh filter in an aluminum housing with An-6 fittings on each end just before the fuel enters my header tank.. You can unscrew one end to clean the mesh. However, been too long ago and I find I never logged the part number on my fuel data sheet. But, here are the specific part numbers I use for the EFI filters Fuel Filters: OEM Auto Fuel Injector Fuel Filters (Two in Parallel) Type: AC GF - 481 Pkg: 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or equivalent) Fittings: 3/8 Saginaw to AN6 Adapter, "O" ring required Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Wendell Voto To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 10:18 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Rob and Ed for the replys on the MSD fuel pumps. Now; what kind of filter do you have ahead of the pump? I'm thinking of using some fine mesh screen to make a filter inside the sump tank. It will be hard to service but believe that one will prolong pump life and possibly. stop a particle that could interupt fuel flow. What size mesh is recommended? Wendell I have been using the MSD 2225 for about 20 hour with no problem so far. Plenty of fuel pressure. Only problem is that it is not threaded so I had to use the barbed nipples that come with the pump. How bad can that be? Robert Bollinger FM1099 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu -al wick Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing. Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct, Risk assessment info: http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html ----__JNP_000_66b5.5e69.3977 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Put a pressure gage between tank and pump. This will measure how much= =20 safety margin you have. It's that pressure drop at pump inlet that's your = risk=20 item. Compare that pressure to results from Hodges fuel tester and wham, = you=20 know exactly how close you are. This is a key safety concept...don't let=20 yourself describe fuel system as good or bad....measure it!
 
I know guys who used clear fuel lines so they could see the fuel turn = to=20 vapor, but you only see things when it's too late. Pressure gage tells you = how=20 far your design is from vapor lock. That way you know you will be safe when= =20 other factors affect vapor point. Like pump temp, fuel type, flight=20 attitude.
 
All filter screens that get plugged are from one cause....using vacuum= =20 cleaner to remove debris. Ordinary vacuum cleaner displaces too much air. = It=20 causes 80% of the debris near nozzle to shoot off to corners of tank. If = you=20 just put duct tape over most of the nozzle, then you have zero risk of=20 debris.
 
Glad you are concerned about pressure drop at inlet. You definitely = don't=20 want to add fine filter there.
I just added wet fuel pumps to my plane. One of the safest approaches = you=20 can use. Details on my web site.
 
 
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo Subaru 3.0R with variable = valve=20 lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence in cockpit, N9032U 240+ = hours=20 from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, Subaru install, Prop construct= ,=20 Risk assessment info:
http:= //www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
 
On Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:44:24 -0500 "Wendell Voto" <jwvoto@itlnet.net> writes:
 

Ed,

You stated that you use Facet pumps, I suppose these = are=20 before the in-line filter. My concern about using the filters before the = efi=20 fuel pump is that there would be more flow restriction. Since I will be = using=20 gravity fed sump tank (5-6 inch elevation difference and I don't want to= =20 pressurize the sump tank), that vaporization could occur; hence I am = still=20 thinking of a large surface screen in the sump tank (already have screen = wire=20 over the strake tank outlets) to catch small stuff that could shorten = pump=20 life, not necessarily plug up the pump. MSD claims to be able to handle = small=20 particles better than the competition. Thinking also of putting in a = sight=20 glass (Plexiglas) to observe tank behavior and screen condition. Can = Plexiglas=20 hold up to auto gas?
Oh yes, the sump tank will have a = water=20 catch sub-sump.

Wendell (hope I'm making sense)

I have opened up my coarse filter 6 times in 10= =20 years.  First time had some small fragments of sealant used to = close=20 the tank.  The next 5 times nothing.  Of course, a lot will = depend=20 on type of tank and quality of fuel going into the tanks.
 
I replace the EFI filters at each conditional=20 inspection, cut the old ones open and have never found anything in them= =20 either.  But, I do use 100LL aircraft quality gasoline - almost=20 exclusively..
 
ED
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 = Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in aircraft= =20
Sent: Sunday, September 09, = 2007 4:00=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need= =20 help

Thanks Ed,
 
How often do you have to clean the=20 filter?
 
Wendell
 

I have a fine wire mesh filter in an = aluminum=20 housing with An-6 fittings on each end just before the fuel enters = my=20 header tank..  You can unscrew one end to clean the mesh. = ;=20 However, been too long ago and I find I never logged the part = number on=20 my fuel data sheet.
 
But, here are the specific part numbers I = use for=20 the EFI filters
 

Fuel Filters: OEM Auto Fuel Injector Fuel Filters (Two in=20 Parallel)

Type: AC GF - 481 Pkg: 25056052 OEM:25055129 (or=20 equivalent)

Fittings: 3/8 Saginaw to AN6 Adapter, "O" ring required

 

Ed

----- Original Message ----- = Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Saturday, September = 08,=20 2007 10:18 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

 
Thanks Rob and Ed for the replys on = the MSD=20 fuel pumps.
 
Now;  what kind of filter do = you have=20 ahead of the pump?  I'm thinking of using some fine mesh = screen=20 to make a filter inside the sump tank.  It will be hard to= =20 service but believe that one will prolong pump life and = possibly.=20 stop a particle that could interupt fuel flow.  What size = mesh=20 is recommended?  
 
Wendell

 
I have been using the MSD 2225= for=20 about 20 hour with no problem so far. Plenty of fuel pressure. = Only=20 problem is that it is not threaded so I had to use the barbed=20 nipples that come with the pump. How bad can that be?
 
Robert Bollinger
FM1099=20 MUM
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-= 3213=20 cell
rob@mum.edu
 
=
 

-al wick
Cozy IV powered by Turbo = Subaru=20 3.0R with variable valve lift and cam timing.
Artificial intelligence = in=20 cockpit, N9032U 240+ hours from Portland, Oregon
Glass panel design, = Subaru=20 install, Prop construct, Risk assessment=20 info:
http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/alwick/index.html
----__JNP_000_66b5.5e69.3977--