X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rg5.comporium.net ([208.104.2.25] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.12) with ESMTPS id 2309394 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:22:28 -0400 Received-SPF: neutral receiver=logan.com; client-ip=208.104.2.25; envelope-from=Jewen@comporium.net Received: from 208-104-81-95.lnhe.2wcm.comporium.net (HELO engineer1) ([208.104.81.95]) by rg5.comporium.net (MOS 3.8.4-GA FastPath queued) with SMTP id ACJ04040; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002701c7ee81$2c5c3220$6505a8c0@cooleygroup.local> From: "Joe Ewen" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Interface between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:21:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7EE5F.A5377F50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/70, host=rg5.comporium.net X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090206.46DC970E.0054,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=208.104.81.95, so=2007-03-13 10:31:19, dmn=5.4.3/2007-08-17 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7EE5F.A5377F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, Thanks for the reply. With all the 20Bs out there, I am hopeful someone = will have the info. Thanks for the pic, but I think that is from a = 89-92 turbo primary. If I understand correctly the 20B is the same as = the 93-95 turbo. The picture is of a top feed injector, the 20B has = side feed injectors on the primary. Thanks again, Joe ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Interface between Primary fuel rail and = diffuser (air bleed) 20B Joe,=20 I was hoping that someone would respond with the solution. While I = have a 20B, its been quite a while since I had the injectors off, but I = think there should be an o-ring like spacer that fits between the bottom = of the injector and the diffuser which forms a seal. I would have to = remove my intake manifold and the fuel rail to look and see. Hopefully, = someone that knows for sure will chime in. In the interim, you chould = check the Mazdatrix website and see what they recommend. =20 I found a jpg of the injector with o-rings, diffuser, etc. that I will = send to you directly. It shows the o-ring/spacer that I mentioned. Mark =20 On 9/3/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Sorry, can't help you Joe. Just no experience with the 20B or = 13BREW. But, I will mention this, IF you do have an air leak of any size, = it will be impossible to bring your idle down to low rpm. It will run = fine, but when you close your throttle, even a very small air leak will = leave your idle above 1200 rpm (or more). So I agree paying attention = to getting that correct is well worth the time and effort. =20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe Ewen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 11:32 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Interface between Primary fuel rail and = diffuser (air bleed) 20B =20 Background When installing the primary fuel rail on my 20B, I noticed a gap = between the primary fuel rail and the diffuser (air bleed.) One of the = original air bleeds was damaged when the rebuilder was removing. He = could not locate a replacement. He supplied new air bleeds designated = for a 93-95 13B, which he was informed were usable in the 20B. The gap = between the fuel rail and the diffuser seems to be between 0.110" and = 0.145". This measurement was determined by inserting the diffuser and = measuring its depth. Then the fuel rail was bolted in place. Through = the intake port, the injector was pushed up until it contacted the fuel = rail. The fuel rail was then removed and diffuser depth was measured. = The difference between the measurements was between 0.110" and 0.145". = The original diffuser returned by the rebuilder has no apparent seal, = the replacement has a rubber seal molded into the top. =20 I took some measurements and drew up the primary, fuel rail / = injector /diffuser (see attached pdf.) It looks like there are 2 = differences between the diffusers that came on the 20B and the = replacements recently purchased. The height of the diffuser above the = seating surface is much lower on the replacements and the length of the = area that projects into the port/air stream is longer. The extra length = extending into the port is probably not an issue. =20 The shorter height of the replacement seems like it will be a = problem, the problem being a vacuum leak around the injector. A = secondary issue from a vacuum leak in this area may be an effect on fuel = droplet size. By looking at the injector, it appears that a metered = amount of air is intended to flow into the pintle cap, presumably to aid = in reducing the fuel droplet size. A vacuum leak in this area may = reduce the air flow through the pintle cap and the resulting droplet = size reduction. =20 I would speculate that at medium or higher power levels the vacuum = leak would probably have little noticeable effect. I would expect that = the most significant effect would be at or near idle conditions. Since = smooth idle seems to be difficult to attain in many installations, it = would certainly be prudent to try and eliminate this issue (not to = mention that it would be good practice to get it right.)=20 Questions 1. There seems to be a very small gap (~0.010") between the fuel = rail seating surface and the top of the original diffuser. It looks = like there should be a grommet that makes up the difference and provides = a positive seal. To anyone who has disassembled a 20B, is there a = grommet/seal the sits on top of the diffuser?=20 2. Same question as 1, for anyone who has disassembled a 93-95 = 13B (13B-REW, I believe)? 3. Anyone have a source for the proper 20B diffusers? Any opinions and/or remedy suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C7EE5F.A5377F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,
 
Thanks for the reply.  With all = the 20Bs out=20 there, I am hopeful someone will have the info.  Thanks for the = pic, but I=20 think that is from a 89-92 turbo primary.  If I understand = correctly the=20 20B is the same as the 93-95 turbo.  The picture is of a top feed = injector,=20 the 20B has side feed injectors on the primary.
 
Thanks again,
Joe
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Monday, September 03, = 2007 5:39=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Interface=20 between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B

Joe,
I was hoping that someone would respond with the solution.  = While I=20 have a 20B, its been quite a while since I had the injectors off, but = I think=20 there should be an o-ring like spacer that fits between the bottom of=20 the injector and the diffuser which forms a seal.  I would = have to=20 remove my intake manifold and the fuel rail to look and see.  = Hopefully,=20 someone that knows for sure will chime in.  In the interim, you = chould=20 check the Mazdatrix website and see what they recommend. 
 
I found a jpg of the injector with o-rings, diffuser, = etc. that I=20 will send to you directly.  It shows the o-ring/spacer that I=20 mentioned.
 
Mark

 
On 9/3/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;=20 wrote:=20
Sorry, can't help you Joe. Just no = experience with the=20 20B or 13BREW.
 
  But, I will mention this, IF you do = have an air=20 leak of any size, it will be impossible to bring your idle down to = low=20 rpm.  It will run fine, but  when you close your throttle, = even a=20 very small air leak will leave your idle above 1200 rpm (or = more).  So=20 I agree paying attention to getting that correct is well worth the = time and=20 effort. 
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From: = Joe Ewen =
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Sent: Monday, September 03, = 2007=20 11:32 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Interface=20 between Primary fuel rail and diffuser (air bleed) 20B

 
Background
When installing the primary = fuel rail on=20 my 20B, I noticed a gap between the primary fuel rail and the = diffuser=20 (air bleed.)  One of the original air bleeds was damaged when = the=20 rebuilder was removing.  He could not locate a = replacement.  He=20 supplied new air bleeds designated for a 93-95 13B, which he was = informed=20 were usable in the 20B.  The gap between the fuel rail and = the=20 diffuser seems to be between 0.110" and 0.145".  This = measurement was=20 determined by inserting the diffuser and measuring its = depth.  Then=20 the fuel rail was bolted in place.  Through the intake port, = the=20 injector was pushed up until it contacted the fuel rail.  The = fuel=20 rail was then removed and diffuser depth was measured.  The=20 difference between the measurements was between 0.110" and = 0.145". =20 The original diffuser returned by the rebuilder has no apparent = seal, the=20 replacement has a rubber seal molded into the top.
 
I took some measurements and drew = up the=20 primary, fuel rail / injector /diffuser (see attached pdf.)  = It looks=20 like there are 2 differences between the diffusers that came = on the=20 20B and the replacements recently purchased.  The height of = the=20 diffuser above the seating surface is much lower on the = replacements and=20 the length of the area that projects into the port/air stream is=20 longer.  The extra length extending into the port is probably = not an=20 issue.   
 
The shorter height of the = replacement seems=20 like it will be a problem, the problem being a vacuum leak around = the=20 injector.  A secondary issue from a vacuum leak in this area = may be=20 an effect on fuel droplet size.  By looking at the injector, = it=20 appears that a metered amount of air is intended to flow into the = pintle=20 cap, presumably to aid in reducing the fuel droplet size.  A = vacuum=20 leak in this area may reduce the air flow through the pintle = cap and=20 the resulting droplet size reduction. 
 
I would speculate that at medium = or higher=20 power levels the vacuum leak would probably have little noticeable = effect.  I would expect that the most significant effect = would be at=20 or near idle conditions.  Since smooth idle seems to be = difficult to=20 attain in many installations, it would certainly be prudent to try = and=20 eliminate this issue (not to mention that it would be good = practice to get=20 it right.)
 
Questions
1.  There seems to be a very = small gap=20 (~0.010") between the fuel rail seating surface and the top of the = original diffuser.  It looks like there should be a grommet = that=20 makes up the difference and provides a positive seal.  To = anyone who=20 has disassembled a 20B, is there a grommet/seal the sits on top of = the=20 diffuser?
 
2.  Same question as 1, for = anyone who=20 has disassembled a 93-95 13B (13B-REW, I believe)?
 
3.  Anyone have a source for = the proper=20 20B diffusers?
 
Any opinions and/or remedy suggestions are appreciated.
 
Thanks,
Joe

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Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l


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