X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail10.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.191] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTPS id 2192018 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 22:15:22 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.191; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-109-55-132.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.109.55.132]) by mail10.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id l6M2EbWf032089 for ; Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:14:38 +1000 Message-ID: <004501c7cc06$11b0fbb0$84376d3a@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs vs efi Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:14:43 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0042_01C7CC59.E2AA3670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C7CC59.E2AA3670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, I'm trying to compare the carb inlet area to port or P-port areas. Standard Port area 32 deg ATDC to 50 degree ABDC =3D 1.18 sq " each side = (x2 =3D 2.36sq")- using the front and back housings only. A street port will be 1.5sq" x 2 =3D 3sq" . A 44mm P-port =3D 2.35sq" A 42mm p-port =3D 2.14sq" A 40mm P-port =3D 1.94sq" A 38mm P-port =3D 1.75sq" So you see a side port on a single has more port area than a small = P-port. Perhaps the velocity will make up for less area. The street port is bigger again at 3 sq" - this equates to 50mm port. The standard port gives about 100 hp, the street port about 130hp each = rotor. I wouldn't want to choke down the port areas with too restrictive inlet = carby area. I can't see how a 38mm will cut the mustard when your own = calculations suggest 1.6 P-port =3D 42mm sq". In reality I'm only looking for 130HPat most, if I can get that. I can run a 41mm ID SS tube p-port with a 42mm Carby ( and hope velocity = makes up the difference) Or I can run with two 1.5 street ported side = ports 3 sq" with two smaller carbs, perhaps 2x32mm. BTW street ported 13B has been dynoed to 264hp can't remember the RPM - = it might have been higher than what we run. More confused than ever! Does anyone know the IO/IC and size and HP of the factory P-port. Lynn, does the timing given, calculated by the rotor uncovering and = covering the port, or the side seal uncovering/covering the port = opening? I was thinking the RX8 rotor will be slightly different (bigger) with = the harased edges. George ( down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Hey=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:17 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs vs efi George, maybe I have the wrong idea, but I don't understand why you = need such a large bore carb for the single rotor. No way you are going = to produce more than 150 hp. I think 38mm would be enough. This is = what Aero Carb recommends for the 0-320. Jerry On Jul 21, 2007, at 5:56 PM, George Lendich wrote: Jerry, Looks like Pat was wrong about Revmaster having a 44mm, the biggest = they go to is 42mm ( at the present time) and that costs $380. If I = remember the 32mm costs $320. Jerry I would be interested in feed back on what you thought about = the Aero Carb, especially how it's constructed - their all a little = different. I do like the Ellison but it's too bloody expensive. George ( down under) George, the web site says $326.00. You might want to compare the = aero carb which is similar. http://www.aeroconversions.com I will be looking at both at Oshkosh on Tuesday and Wednesday next = week. Jerry Jerry On Jul 20, 2007, at 10:06 PM, George Lendich wrote: I have been surprised at the recent flurry of carb postings. = I assumed that everyone was doing EFI. having experienced total = electrical failure in march on a trip to the Bahamas I was thinking a = lot about that Neanderthal carb bolted under my O320 and the magnetos, = all unaware of what was going on in the radio, GPS, and nav lights = departments. the reality is that you don't want a reserve battery to = get you to the ground safely, you want to get to the Bahamas and back = and THEN look into what's wrong. my questions are "how much power/performance is lost with a = carb, and which carbs can do manual mixture?". is it stupid to ask if = the Lycoming carb could run a 13B? someone mentioned Harley carbs = having a good history of rough service. what about marvel/schebler? is = this question heresy? :-) isn't efi a bit of overkill for an engine = that basically runs at 100% power, 75% power and idle? scanning thru = the archives I see a lot of postings regarding mixture, mapping, abrupt = failures and such. does this complexity buy us 5%, 20%? the question = of turbo-charging seems to beg similar line of questioning. kevin Kevin, It's probably my fault, with a number of chaps helping me out = with information. My Buddy Bill Jepson will tell you nothing beats EFI and when = it's running well, he's absolutely right! Not only that it is the best for fuel efficiency, leaning = reading fuel flow etc. etc. However I'm developing a single rotor and looking at all sorts = of issues including cost effectiveness of less elaborate installations. = I'm also not keen on high pressure fuel under the cowl. Most importantly I'm not an electronics person and seeing the = problems experienced by others has me more than a little nervous, in = regard to EFI. Of course I know very little about carbies, so their helping = me with this as well. The Revmaster might be the choice for me, but I'm awaiting the = sticker shock! George ( down under) ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01C7CC59.E2AA3670 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry,
I'm trying to compare the carb inlet = area to port=20 or P-port areas.
Standard Port area 32 deg ATDC to 50 = degree ABDC =3D=20 1.18 sq " each side (x2 =3D 2.36sq")- using the front and back = housings=20 only.
 
A street port will be 1.5sq" x 2 =3D=20 3sq"
.
A 44mm P-port =3D=20 2.35sq"
A 42mm p-port =3D = 2.14sq"
A 40mm P-port =3D 1.94sq"
A 38mm P-port =3D 1.75sq"
So you see a side port on a single has = more port=20 area than a small P-port.
Perhaps the velocity will make up for = less=20 area.
The street port is bigger again at 3 = sq" - this=20 equates to 50mm port.
 
The standard port gives about 100 hp, = the street=20 port about 130hp each rotor.
I wouldn't want to choke down the port = areas with=20 too  restrictive inlet carby area. I=20 can't see how a 38mm will cut the mustard when your own calculations = suggest 1.6=20 P-port =3D 42mm sq".
 
In reality I'm only looking for 130HPat = most, if I=20 can get that.
 
I can run a 41mm ID SS tube p-port with = a 42mm=20 Carby ( and hope velocity makes up the difference) Or I can run with two = 1.5=20 street ported side ports 3 sq" with two smaller carbs, perhaps=20 2x32mm.
 
BTW street ported 13B has been dynoed = to 264hp=20 can't remember the RPM - it might have been higher than what we=20 run.
More confused than ever!
 
Does anyone know the IO/IC and size and = HP of=20 the factory P-port.
 
Lynn, does the timing given, calculated = by the=20 rotor uncovering and covering the port, or the side seal = uncovering/covering the=20 port opening?
I was thinking the RX8 rotor will be = slightly=20 different (bigger) with the harased edges.
George ( down under)
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry=20 Hey
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 = 9:17 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs = vs=20 efi

George,  maybe I have the wrong idea, but I don't=20 understand why you need such a large bore carb for the single = rotor.  No=20 way you are going to produce more than 150 hp.  I think 38mm = would be=20 enough.  This is what Aero Carb recommends for the 0-320.  = Jerry


On Jul 21, 2007, at 5:56 PM, George Lendich wrote:
Jerry,
Looks like Pat was = wrong about=20 Revmaster having a 44mm, the biggest they go to is 42mm ( at the = present=20 time) and that costs $380. If I remember the 32mm costs=20 $320.
Jerry I would be = interested in=20 feed back on what you thought about the Aero Carb, especially how = it's=20 constructed - their all a little different.
I do like the Ellison = but it's=20 too bloody expensive.
George ( down=20 under)
George, =20 the web site says $326.00.  You might want to compare the = aero carb=20 which is similar.  http://www.aeroconversions.com
I will be looking at both at Oshkosh on Tuesday and Wednesday = next=20 week.  Jerry


Jerry






On Jul 20, 2007, at 10:06 PM, George Lendich wrote:
 
I have been surprised at = the recent=20 flurry of carb postings.  I assumed that everyone was = doing=20 EFI.  having experienced total electrical failure in = march on a=20 trip to the Bahamas I was thinking a lot about that = Neanderthal carb=20 bolted under my O320 and the magnetos, all unaware of what was = going=20 on in the radio, GPS, and nav lights=20 departments.    the reality is that you don't = want a=20 reserve battery to get you to the ground safely, you want to = get to=20 the Bahamas and back and THEN look into what's=20 wrong.
my questions are "how = much=20 power/performance is lost with a carb, and which carbs can do = manual=20 mixture?".  is it stupid to ask if the Lycoming carb = could run a=20 13B?  someone mentioned Harley carbs having = a good=20 history of rough service.  what about = marvel/schebler?  is=20 this question heresy? :-)  isn't efi a bit of overkill = for an=20 engine that basically runs at 100% power, 75% power and = idle? =20 scanning thru the archives I see a lot of postings regarding = mixture,=20 mapping, abrupt failures and such.  does this complexity = buy us=20 5%, 20%?  the question of turbo-charging seems = to beg=20 similar line of questioning.   =20 kevin
 
Kevin,
It's probably my fault, = with a=20 number of chaps helping me out with=20 information.
My Buddy Bill Jepson will = tell you=20 nothing beats EFI and when it's running well, he's absolutely=20 right!
Not only that it is the = best=20 for  fuel efficiency, leaning reading fuel flow etc.=20 etc.
However I'm developing a = single=20 rotor and looking at all sorts of issues including cost = effectiveness=20 of less elaborate installations. I'm also not keen on high=20 pressure
fuel under the=20 cowl.
Most importantly I'm = not an=20 electronics person and seeing the problems experienced by = others has=20 me more than a little nervous, in regard to=20 EFI.
Of course I know very = little about=20 carbies, so their helping me with this as=20 well.
The Revmaster might be = the choice=20 for me, but I'm awaiting the sticker = shock!
George ( down=20 under)


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