X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.246] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2191368 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 12:16:17 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.246; envelope-from=rotary.thjakits@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so213983ana for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Z7DnOTnz97NEu7/SEDMXCz+8eqFtBdFjVIe6jZQiGFIP05bRiffCMQX5nqc28k3VmnXkimsAZmUCCsN7C2fC5DumlaZZ1c3+WygjsgryCtahFWBQRgyXkaChVDVwhQjCTFDME9PgXSYNEmZXaeTToR8hfWTO+VAPM5lmUKKS0K4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=cYOuYWWTYT0A2UdP8Wo3GnGJ+FGkscmaf8pI0nuS64BsVy+kGz8fiiBdjY+/zyhr8etNU3f1AVJwX9SmikeCXtglF9HzcRU8dyTljw5O/L95gEcqO7fKiO5FUburkutrJ49MaQswBC+nnu9VylUuVX1wiNkNxG7M8s/13bb1KM8= Received: by 10.100.95.19 with SMTP id s19mr794337anb.1185034540585; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.197.17 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <63163d560707210915l2aba3991ra6870aca3c6a9670@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:15:40 -0500 From: "Thomas Jakits" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Carb and EFI was: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs vs efi In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_181483_9763556.1185034540570" References: ------=_Part_181483_9763556.1185034540570 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Damn, I didn't get when Buly was pulling out!! This is a serious loss, as he was really close!! TJ On 7/21/07, Ed Anderson wrote: > > Good Response, Bill. > > Whether EFI or Carb, the fuel system is one of the two crucial systems in > an aircraft - the other being ignition. If either is not done carefully and > attention to detail and good workmanship, problems will come - sooner or > later, but, they will come. > > The EFI system produced by Tracy with its redundancy, many tuning modes, > etc, is one I feel very comfortable flying. Having had an after-market EFI > fail completely (fortunately) on the ground, the comfort of redundancy with > the RWS EC2 and its well thought out design has made the last 8 of my 10 > years of rotary flight a pleasure. > > My personal perspective is that EFI simply gives me more insight and > control over the engine's fuel parameters (note - that is not always a good > thing as it gives more opportunity to screw things up also) than a > carburetor. Having said that, once you get a carb tuned in then you can > pretty much forget it. > > But, the very design features that permit the EC2 to be twixed and tuned > to achieve the optimum fuel feed conditions are also those that can > frustrate some. It is clear that some folks do not take the time to read > (or perhaps having read it just don't understand some aspects) Tracy's > instructions - if you intend to vary from them then you better know as much > (or more) than Tracy about EFI design and tuning. > > If you don't understand some aspect of the instructions - ask Tracy or > even post it to this list - who knows, somebody may know {:>). If you > deviate from Tracy's instructions - then you have designed a new system with > unknown (until tested) features {:>) > > Either approach (carb or EFI) will fly the rotary just fine. There are > (as with most everything) some pros and cons to each and some folks > simply feel more comfortable with one than the other. Hey, that what this > is all about - you get to do it you way. Just do it with knowledge, > experience (if you don't have any find someone who does) and eye to > examining each component/connection with the attitude of if this should fail > - what happens? If you don't like what happens, then take the time, get the > knowledge to minimize the probably of that component failing or the > consequence of failure. > > Well, back to my coffee > > Ed > > > Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors here. First Tracy is > doing some development work, but offering a very inexpensive EMS. Once you > get everything right it should give great service. Ed Anderson is a good > indicator that the system will run for a long time once dialed in. Some guys > are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and not just because of > the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with what you feel secure > with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before that mags can have trouble > with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early front cover and are > willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition. > Most of the carb inquiries have been on account of George and Richard > going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have a modified stocker > ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a great service building, > and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, with a steel insert. > (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!) Lynn and I have both grafted old mopar EI ignitions on > to other engines. These require battery power but are otherwise unkillable. > Available for next to nothing from J.C. Whitney but you must do the set up > and wiring yourself. > Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you must realize that wiring > and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is equally true of a > Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is available to you > off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he made with the > wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing him fail to start > problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too and the troubles drove > him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled his control box for an > update could Tracy find the problem. He is putting in a Lyc. clone. This is > a terrible loss for us. The problem was self generated, (he re-soldered a > connector to gain clearance rather than re-do the panel), and that connector > had the classically difficult to diagnose intermittent problem. Bully and > family made the tough decision to forgo any further pioneering. To bad too, > his plane would have been a great addition to the conversion "fleet." The > point here is, like flying a cross-country, plan the install and then stick > to the plan. If you run into a bind do the needed rework and don't "make > do." > You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several, Tracy's is aviation > redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be able to understand the needs > of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. Troubleshooting wiring is > always the toughest job! > This is a super long post already but I must tell you about a failure I > had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for school. I was doing a > tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, came in running for > a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb adjustment, the works... > After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN'T START! I checked spark > with a test plug on the cylinder head and drained the float bowl to check > fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine in the world, a 2 stroke > single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I broke it > apart later to check and found someone on the production line had left out > the copper core connecting the top of the plug to the center electrode. The > point is no matter how simple you think a job is it still requires logic and > perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff can > fail. > > Bill Jepson > > > > ------------------------------ > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com > . > > ------=_Part_181483_9763556.1185034540570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Damn,
 
I didn't get when Buly was pulling out!!
This is a serious loss, as he was really close!!
 
TJ

 
On 7/21/07, = Ed Anderson <eanderson@= carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Good Response, Bill.
 
Whether EFI or Carb, the fuel system is one of the tw= o crucial systems in an aircraft - the other being ignition.  If eithe= r is not done carefully and attention to detail and good workmanship, probl= ems will come - sooner or later, but, they will come. =20
 
The EFI system produced by Tracy with its redundancy,= many tuning modes, etc, is one I feel very comfortable flying.  Havin= g had an after-market EFI fail completely (fortunately) on the ground, the = comfort of redundancy with the RWS EC2 and its well thought out design has = made the last 8 of my 10 years of rotary flight a pleasure.
 
  My personal perspective is that EFI simply giv= es me more insight and control over the engine's fuel parameters (note = - that is not always  a good thing as it gives more opportunity to scr= ew things up also) than a carburetor.  Having said that, once you get = a carb tuned in then you can pretty much forget it.   =20
 
But, the very design features that permit the EC2 to = be twixed and tuned to achieve the optimum fuel feed conditions are also th= ose that can frustrate some.  It is clear that  some folks d= o not take the time to read (or perhaps having read it just don't  = ;understand some aspects) Tracy's instructions - if you intend to vary = from them then you better know as much (or more) than Tracy about EFI desig= n and tuning.
 
  If you don't understand some aspect of the= instructions - ask Tracy or even post it to this list - who knows, somebod= y may know {:>).  If you deviate from Tracy's instructions - th= en you have designed a new system with unknown (until tested) features {:&g= t;)
 
Either approach (carb or EFI) will fly the rotary jus= t fine.  There are (as with most everything) some pros and cons to eac= h and some folks simply feel more comfortable with one than the other.=   Hey, that what this is all about - you get to do it you way.  J= ust do it with knowledge, experience (if you don't have any find someon= e who does) and eye to examining each component/connection with the attitud= e of if this should fail - what happens?  If you don't like what h= appens, then take the time, get the knowledge to minimize the probably of t= hat component failing or the consequence of failure.
 
Well, back to my coffee
 
Ed
 
Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors h= ere. First Tracy is doing some development work, but offering a very inexpe= nsive EMS. Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed A= nderson is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once d= ialed in. Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and= not just because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with w= hat you feel secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before th= at mags can have trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early= front cover and are willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition= .
 Most of the carb inquiries have been on account= of George and Richard going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have= a modified stocker ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a grea= t service building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, wi= th a steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!)  Lynn and I have both grafted = old mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power but= are otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from=20 J.C. Whitney but you must do the set up and wiring yourself.
Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you mu= st realize that wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This = is equally true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) = is available to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he ma= de with the wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing= him fail to start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder to= o and the troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled h= is control box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is putti= ng in a Lyc. clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was self ge= nerated, (he re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather than re-do th= e panel), and that connector had the classically difficult to diagnose inte= rmittent problem. Bully and family made the tough decision to forgo any fur= ther pioneering. To bad too, his plane would have been a great addition to = the conversion "fleet."  The point here is, like flying a cr= oss-country, plan the install and then stick to the plan. If you run into a= bind do the needed rework and don't "make do."=20
 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several= , Tracy's is aviation redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be a= ble to understand the needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EM= S. Troubleshooting wiring is always the toughest job!
This is a super long post already but I must tel= l you about a failure I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay fo= r school. I was doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cy= cle, came in running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, car= b adjustment, the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN&= #39;T START! I checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head and drai= ned the float bowl to check fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine = in the world, a 2 stroke single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PL= UG was bad. I broke it apart later to check and found someone on the produc= tion line had left out the copper core connecting the top of the plug to th= e center electrode. The point is no matter how simple you think a job is it= still requires logic and perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. An= d even "simple" stuff can fail.
 
Bill Jepson



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