X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.101] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2191025 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:20:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.101; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-02.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l6LCK0Ig021019 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002c01c7cb91$8da2ed70$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Carb and EFI was: [FlyRotary] Re: carbs vs efi Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:20:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C7CB70.064C2E20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C7CB70.064C2E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Response, Bill. Whether EFI or Carb, the fuel system is one of the two crucial systems = in an aircraft - the other being ignition. If either is not done = carefully and attention to detail and good workmanship, problems will = come - sooner or later, but, they will come. =20 The EFI system produced by Tracy with its redundancy, many tuning modes, = etc, is one I feel very comfortable flying. Having had an after-market = EFI fail completely (fortunately) on the ground, the comfort of = redundancy with the RWS EC2 and its well thought out design has made the = last 8 of my 10 years of rotary flight a pleasure. My personal perspective is that EFI simply gives me more insight and = control over the engine's fuel parameters (note - that is not always a = good thing as it gives more opportunity to screw things up also) than a = carburetor. Having said that, once you get a carb tuned in then you can = pretty much forget it. =20 But, the very design features that permit the EC2 to be twixed and tuned = to achieve the optimum fuel feed conditions are also those that can = frustrate some. It is clear that some folks do not take the time to = read (or perhaps having read it just don't understand some aspects) = Tracy's instructions - if you intend to vary from them then you better = know as much (or more) than Tracy about EFI design and tuning. If you don't understand some aspect of the instructions - ask Tracy or = even post it to this list - who knows, somebody may know {:>). If you = deviate from Tracy's instructions - then you have designed a new system = with unknown (until tested) features {:>) Either approach (carb or EFI) will fly the rotary just fine. There are = (as with most everything) some pros and cons to each and some folks = simply feel more comfortable with one than the other. Hey, that what = this is all about - you get to do it you way. Just do it with = knowledge, experience (if you don't have any find someone who does) and = eye to examining each component/connection with the attitude of if this = should fail - what happens? If you don't like what happens, then take = the time, get the knowledge to minimize the probably of that component = failing or the consequence of failure. Well, back to my coffee Ed =20 Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several factors here. First Tracy = is doing some development work, but offering a very inexpensive EMS. = Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed Anderson = is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once dialed = in. Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and = not just because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with = what you feel secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before = that mags can have trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an = early front cover and are willing to run POINTS, you will still need an = ignition. Most of the carb inquiries have been on account of George and Richard = going with single rotors. I believe Richard may have a modified stocker = ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a great service = building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, with a = steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!) Lynn and I have both grafted old = mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power but = are otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. = Whitney but you must do the set up and wiring yourself.=20 Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you must realize that = wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is equally = true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is = available to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he = made with the wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing = him fail to start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too = and the troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled = his control box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is = putting in a Lyc. clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was = self generated, (he re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather = than re-do the panel), and that connector had the classically difficult = to diagnose intermittent problem. Bully and family made the tough = decision to forgo any further pioneering. To bad too, his plane would = have been a great addition to the conversion "fleet." The point here = is, like flying a cross-country, plan the install and then stick to the = plan. If you run into a bind do the needed rework and don't "make do."=20 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are several, Tracy's is aviation = redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be able to understand the = needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. Troubleshooting = wiring is always the toughest job! This is a super long post already but I must tell you about a failure = I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for school. I was = doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, came in = running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb = adjustment, the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE = WOULDN'T START! I checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head = and drained the float bowl to check fuel it was clean. This is the = simplest engine in the world, a 2 stroke single! To cut to the chase the = brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I broke it apart later to check and found = someone on the production line had left out the copper core connecting = the top of the plug to the center electrode. The point is no matter how = simple you think a job is it still requires logic and perseverance to be = SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff can fail. Bill Jepson -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C7CB70.064C2E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good Response, Bill.
 
Whether EFI or Carb, the fuel system is one of the = two crucial=20 systems in an aircraft - the other being ignition.  If either is = not done=20 carefully and attention to detail and good workmanship, problems will = come -=20 sooner or later, but, they will come. 
 
The EFI system produced by Tracy with its = redundancy, many=20 tuning modes, etc, is one I feel very comfortable flying.  Having = had an=20 after-market EFI fail completely (fortunately) on the ground, the = comfort of=20 redundancy with the RWS EC2 and its well thought out design has made the = last 8=20 of my 10 years of rotary flight a pleasure.
 
  My personal perspective is that EFI simply = gives me=20 more insight and control over the engine's fuel parameters (note - that = is not=20 always  a good thing as it gives more opportunity to screw things = up also)=20 than a carburetor.  Having said that, once you get a carb tuned in = then you=20 can pretty much forget it.   
 
But, the very design features that permit the EC2 to = be twixed=20 and tuned to achieve the optimum fuel feed conditions are also those = that can=20 frustrate some.  It is clear that  some folks do not take = the=20 time to read (or perhaps having read it just don't  understand some = aspects) Tracy's instructions - if you intend to vary from them then you = better=20 know as much (or more) than Tracy about EFI design and = tuning.
 
  If you don't understand some aspect of the = instructions=20 - ask Tracy or even post it to this list - who knows, somebody may know=20 {:>).  If you deviate from Tracy's instructions - then you have = designed=20 a new system with unknown (until tested) features {:>)
 
Either approach (carb or EFI) will fly the rotary = just=20 fine.  There are (as with most everything) some pros and cons to = each and=20 some folks simply feel more comfortable with one than the = other.  Hey,=20 that what this is all about - you get to do it you way.  Just do it = with=20 knowledge, experience (if you don't have any find someone who does) and = eye to=20 examining each component/connection with the attitude of if this should = fail -=20 what happens?  If you don't like what happens, then take the time, = get the=20 knowledge to minimize the probably of that component failing or the = consequence=20 of failure.
 
Well, back to my coffee
 
Ed
 
Kevin, not heresy at all. There are several = factors here.=20 First Tracy is doing some development work, but offering a very = inexpensive=20 EMS. Once you get everything right it should give great service. Ed = Anderson=20 is a good indicator that the system will run for a long time once = dialed in.=20 Some guys are doing fully redundant alternators AND batteries and not = just=20 because of the engine, rather a fully electrical panel. Go with what = you feel=20 secure with, and fly accordingly. I have posted before that mags = can have=20 trouble with high RPM engines. So unless you have an early front cover = and are=20 willing to run POINTS, you will still need an ignition.
 Most of the carb inquiries have been on = account of=20 George and Richard going with single rotors. I believe Richard may = have a=20 modified stocker ignition and a carbed P-port. He has done us all a = great=20 service building, and now testing a hybrid end plate. mostly aluminum, = with a=20 steel insert. (GOOD LUCK RICHARD!)  Lynn and I have both grafted = old=20 mopar EI ignitions on to other engines. These require battery power = but are=20 otherwise unkillable. Available for next to nothing from J.C. Whitney = but you=20 must do the set up and wiring yourself.
Tracy's system looks to be a good one, but you = must realize=20 that wiring and plumbing ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE PROPERLY. This is = equally=20 true of a Lycoming install, but more of the FWF or FWB (Canard) is = available=20 to you off the shelf. We lost Buly to some mistakes that he made with = the=20 wiring, not a complete failure, but intermittently causing him = fail to=20 start problems out of the blue. Buly is a good builder too and = the=20 troubles drove him and Tracy crazy. Only when he finally pulled his = control=20 box for an update could Tracy find the problem. He is putting in = a Lyc.=20 clone. This is a terrible loss for us. The problem was self generated, = (he=20 re-soldered a connector to gain clearance rather than re-do the = panel), and=20 that connector had the classically difficult to diagnose intermittent = problem.=20 Bully and family made the tough decision to forgo any further = pioneering. To=20 bad too, his plane would have been a great addition to the conversion=20 "fleet."  The point here is, like flying a cross-country, plan = the=20 install and then stick to the plan. If you run into a bind do the = needed=20 rework and don't "make do."
 You can go with carbs or EFI, there are = several,=20 Tracy's is aviation redundant, and the cheapest though. You must be = able to=20 understand the needs of digital electronics to install ANY EFI or EMS. = Troubleshooting wiring is always the toughest job!
This is a super long post already but I must = tell you=20 about a failure I had back in the days I did mechanics work to pay for = school.=20 I was doing a tune-up on a Kawasaki 175 single. Mag ignition 2 cycle, = came in=20 running for a regular service. I did points, timing, plug, carb = adjustment,=20 the works... After finishing my labors, THE DAMM BIKE WOULDN'T START! = I=20 checked spark with a test plug on the cylinder head and drained the = float bowl=20 to check fuel it was clean. This is the simplest engine in the world, = a 2=20 stroke single! To cut to the chase the brand new SPARK PLUG was bad. I = broke=20 it apart later to check and found someone on the production line had = left out=20 the copper core connecting the top of the plug to the center = electrode. The=20 point is no matter how simple you think a job is it still requires = logic and=20 perseverance to be SURE everything is correct. And even "simple" stuff = can=20 fail.
 
Bill Jepson



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